Humans, Other Beings in/Relevant to the Quran, Part 31

 

186.   al-NADR IBN AL-HARIT

Strong opponent of Muhammad in Mecca. "My tales are far better than Muhammad's", and "Muhammad's tales are just old ones" (quite right as more or less all stories Muhammad told, he had "borrowed" - and often twisted - from old sources, mainly legends, made up apocryphal stories, and even fairy tales.) He was taken prisoner during the Battle of Badr, and executed on Muhammad's order.

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186. NATHAN - OLD JEWISH PROPHET

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001 38/21-24: This story is not from the Bible. But it is likely it is inspired by vague rumors about the story about David and Bathsheba (2. Sam. Ch. 11), or more correct the prophet Nathan's reaction to that story (2. Sam. Ch.12). Besides being differently told, the story in the Quran also is "hanging in the air", because it does not tell the background or reason for it, and thus not what it was all about (David had an affair with a married woman - in spite of all his own wives. When she became pregnant, he had her husband, Uriah, killed to avoid trouble. Nathan rebuked David strongly for this. By the way, that baby later became king Solomon.

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187. NASR - PAGAN GOD IN THE OLD ARABIA

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#001 71/23b: "Wadd - - - Suwa' - - - Yaghuth - - - Ya'uq - - - Nasr - - -". 5 gods which were cherished in Arabia at the time of Muhammad. But Muhammad claimed these gods were cherished by Noah's people somewhere in southern Mesopotamia (now southern Iraq) 2500 years earlier. What were the chances those people had the same gods as in the distant Arabia some 100 generations later? Muslims of course say these gods were imported from Mesopotamia and were old - but there exist no documentation for this at all; just one more of Islam's many not proved claims. Worse: Science believes they were imported from Syria, not from Mesopotamia + that in the old times when there were no books to make ideas permanent, gods slowly changed over the generations - they were not the same through 2500 years. (Just compare to all the chances the god Il went through: First he was the main god Il somewhere in the east (perhaps in south Mesopotamia where one also believes Noah lived - if he is not fiction). Then in Arabia he slowly became the moon god al-Ilah, at least in the southern part. Then he developed into the main god of Arabia, al-Lah and got lots of daughters - angels and goddesses. Then his name drifted towards al-Lah and later Allah, but still a pagan main god. And finally Muhammad dressed him up to become the monotheistic god Allah. (But unless everything in the Quran is true, included the never proved claim that the book is from a god, Allah still is a pagan, made up god.)

Wrong unless Islam proves - proves, not claims - differently.

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188.   NIMROD

Great grandson of Noah according to the Bible.

Nimrod's fire should burn Muhammad - not mentioned in the Bible.

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001 6/89b: "These were the men (the ones mentioned in verses 6/83 through 6/87*) to whom We (Allah*) gave the Book". The Bible does not mention any book connected to f.x. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ishmael, let alone something like OT or the Quran which is meant here - this also according to science, as no trace of anything similar to the Quran older than 610 AD (when Muhammad started his mission) has ever been found - compared to some 45ooo relevant scriptures and fragments + other traces older than 610 AD from the Bible).

Another point is that no god ever made a book of a quality like the Quran with all its mistakes, etc.

And yet another point is that nomads of those times hardly knew how to read. It is not impossible that Joseph, son of Jacob, learnt how to read and write in Egypt, but but for him it is likely that the first of the central persons in the Bible who knew how to read and write, was Moses.

002 11/69c: In comment A1565 to this verse A. Yusuf Ali among other things tells about Abraham that "he had triumphed over the persecution of Nimrod". But Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah (1. Mos. 10/6-8), and lived millennia before Abraham. (Look f.x. at the information that after the flood only a few humans were alive. At the time of Abraham the world was populated again, and that takes time). Abraham cannot have been persecuted by Nimrod. (If the story about the flood and the story about Abraham took place in some form or other, science believes there were a couple of millennia or more between them.) Flatly wrong.

003 21/52-71: Abraham delivered from Nimrod's fire. This story is taken from "Midrash Rabbah" and not from the Bible. And another point: Abraham and Nimrod did not live at the same time (if they ever lived). Muhammad had a strong tendency to mix persons from different times (f.x. Haman and Ramses II - some 800 years wrong. Or Mary and Miriam - some 1200 years wrong.) You do not find this story about Abram (later renamed Abraham) and the gods in the Bible - the only source about Abraham - and this part 1000 years or more older than the Quran, and a book where one of the heroes had benefited from a tale like this, so no-one would dream of taking it out if it was true.

Who then was Nimrod? Nimrod according to the Bible was the son of Cush, who was the son of Ham, who was one of the three sons of Noah, who - if he ever lived - lived some 5ooo-6ooo years ago. If Abraham ever lived, he lived some 3800-4ooo years ago. This means there were some 2ooo years between Nimrod and Abraham.

It takes a lot of missing knowledge to mix two persons living some 2ooo years apart. No omniscient god makes that kind of mistake.

004 21/68-69: This is in short the story of Nimrod's Fire (see 21/69b below). It is - like so much in the Quran pretending to be old Jewish history - not from the Bible. The story also is impossible, as Nimrod lived centuries or much more before Abraham - if he ever lived. (Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah and lived(?) something like 2ooo or more years before Abraham according to science). Muhammad had little knowledge about the Bible, but any god had known this.

005 21/69a: (A21/61 – in 2008 edition A21/64): “We (Allah*) said, ‘O fire! Be thou cool, and (a means of) safety for Abraham”. But there is nowhere in the Quran actually said that Abraham was thrown into the fire, so even today Islam is at a loss what to believe – some say yes and some no. Clear language?

006 21/69b: “We (Allah*) said, ‘O fire! Be thou cool, and (a means of) safety for Abraham”. This episode is normally referred to as "Nimrod's (or Nimrud's) Fire". But as Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah and as he lived - if he ever lived - some 2ooo years or more before Abraham, this is an impossibility. Then Muslims - not for the first or only time - say: "It was another with the same name", in this case an unknown king. We have found no basis for this claim, and Islam will have to produce proofs. This even more so as this is a typical Muslim way of explaining away problems - and as normal without any proofs.

007 29/16a: Abraham delivered from Nimrod's fire. Taken from the story "Midrash Rabbah", not from the Bible - there is nothing similar about Abraham in the Bible, but there is one about Daniel 1000+ years later, which may have inspired this "story". And another point: Abraham and Nimrod did not live at the same time (if they ever lived). Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah (1. Mos. 10/1-8: Noah - Ham - Cush - Nimrod), and if he is not a fiction, he lived 3ooo - 5ooo BC. Whereas Abraham - if he ever lived - lived some 1800 - 2ooo BC. Muhammad had a strong tendency to mix persons from different times (f.x. Haman and Ramses II/Xerxes - some 800 years wrong. Or Mary and Miriam - some 1200 years wrong.)

008 29/24d: "Slay him (Abram/Abraham*) or burn him". Actually there is said nothing in the Bible about Abram/Abraham having troubles in Ur in Chaldea where he came from (1. Mos. 11/29-31). And actually this tale is "borrowed" from the story "Midrash Rabbah", and as for Nimrod's fire - another point here is: Abraham and Nimrod did not live at the same time (if they ever lived). Nimrod was the great grandchild of Noah and lived (?) 1ooo - 2ooo years before Abraham. Muhammad had a strong tendency to mix persons from different times (f.x. Haman and the time of Ramses II/Xerxes - some 800 years wrong. Or Mary and Miriam - some 1200 years wrong.)

009 29/24e: "But Allah saved him (Abram/Abraham*) from the Fire (of Nimrod*)." This is not from the Bible - neither fire nor Nimrod is mentioned there in connection to Abraham.

010 37/97c: “They (the people of Abraham*) said, ‘Build him (Abraham) a furnace, and throw him into the blazing fire!” You are free to believe this happened to Abraham – but beware that the story about Nimrod's fire is “borrowed” from a tale named “Midrash Rabbah” and not from the Bible - see 29/16a above.(Muhammad may also have been inspired by the story about Daniel's friends in the OT (Dan. 3/21-27)). Also see 37/97-98 just below.

011 37/97-98: Abraham delivered from Nimrod's fire. Taken from the made up old story "Midrash Rabbah" and retold like it was a true history. And another point: Abraham and Nimrod did not live at the same time (if they ever lived). Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah, and lived - if he is not fiction - perhaps a couple of thousand years before Abram/Abraham - see 29/16a above. Muhammad had a strong tendency to mix persons from different times (f.x. d Ramses II and Haman - some 800 years wrong. Or Mary and Miriam - some 1200 years wrong.) Also see 37/97c just above.

012 37/98: "(This failing) - - -". According to the Quran - and "Midrash Rabbah" - the fire did not burn Abraham.

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189.   NOAH

Noah is one of the 5 central Biblical prophets according to Islam - likely number 5 after Muhammad, Abraham, Jesus, and Moses. Science thinks is unclear if he really has lived. If he has lived, it must have been a rather long time before Abraham, because at the time of Abraham the world was richly populated again, which very optimistically would take at least 1ooo years. As Abraham lived(?) some 2ooo or a little less before Christ, this means Noah lived at least 3ooo BC.

A very different point is that science says humanity diversified much earlier, and that there are found no traces of a flood covering the entire Earth neither around 3ooo-5ooo BC, nor any other time after life entered dry land, not to mention after Homo Sapience - modern man - came into existence some 160ooo-200ooo years ago. Islam explains this away by claiming the filling up of the Mediterranean Sea (some 5 million years ago) or the filling up of the Black Sea (some 10ooo-15ooo years ago). Both are nonsense for several reasons. One flooding which Muslims never mention, is the enormous one in Mesopotamia around 3200 BC (found by the British archeologist C. Leonhard Woolley in 1929). This one is at the right place and roughly at the right time, but no matter how enormous, it was far too small and local to make the Ark end up at Mt. al-Judi, 2089 m, in Syria, or Mt. Ararat (5165 meters) in Turkey, which may be why Islam is silent about this one - if it was this one, the Quran is proved wrong on at least two more points: The Flood did not cover the entire world, and the Ark did not end up on Mt. al-Judi in Syria.

One point about Mt. Al-Judi: The reason for the somewhat differing claims for where it is situated, is that nobody really knows where it was. There are several traditions placing it different places. Today the most used claim is a 2089 m high mountain north of Silopi - a town in the southeastern Anatoly region in Turkey - a mountain now named Jabal Judi or Judi Dagh by Muslims and Gardu by Jews and Christians.

It is possible today to measure how long time a stone have received sunshine and rays, and for chiseled stones, the process in the new surface starts when the stone is chiseled = roughly at the time a building is built. Neutrons made by cosmic rays react with elements in the stone and produce variants - isotops - of some of them, and from how much isotopsare made, one can calculate the age of the stone surafce, bacause the production of such isitops is fairly constant.

 

By the way: The oldest known temple - building for revering one or more gods - is in Turkey, not in Arabia, and definitely not for Allah. Gobekli Tepe was built around 9ooo BC - some 7ooo years before Abraham and perhaps 5ooo years before Noah. Actually before even the costal Arabia was settled some 7ooo BC or a little earlier (though some places along the coast much earlier.)

################Added 5. Feb. 2015:

We today discovered that there has been archeological work done in Mecca and the Mecca valley. (By Muslims as only Muslims are permitted there.) The conclusion: "No traces found from buildings earlier than the 4. century AD" (= at least 2100 years after Abraham). "The first temple/mosque likely built in the 5. century AD" (= at least 2200 years after Abraham). No comments necessary.

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001 3/33b: "- - - Noah - - -". A time anomaly - see 4/13d below.

*002 3/96b: “The first House (of worship) appointed for man was that at Bakkah (Kabah mosque in Mecca*)". Wrong. Even if we should accept that Abraham “made the foundations” of the Kabah in Mecca, he lived (if he is not fiction) around 2000-1800 BC. At that time the first temples, etc. in f.x. Egypt and Mesopotamia and other places in the Middle East were old. Today it is possible to find the real age of many things. It is symptomatic that as far as we know, Islam has not tried to see if it is possible to find the real age of the oldest parts of the Kabah. Wagging tongues insinuates that may be the reason is that they are afraid it is younger than 3800 years. - what if it turns out it is built around 100 BC - or AD - f.x? - or even later?

Islam also has one problem concerning measuring the age of the Kabah: They will have to use qualified western experts. If they use Muslim experts - who may be well qualified to do it - and find that it f.x. is 5630 years old, not one single soul will believe them unconditionally, because of "al-Taqiyya" - the lawful lie - which Muslims not only are permitted to use, but are advised to use "if necessary", when it comes to promoting or defending Islam. But non-Muslims are not permitted to visit Kabah. We may also add that it is further said that Abraham built on the even older ruins of a temple made by Adam - of course Adam like Abraham went all the way to the desert proto-Mecca and built a big temple he never could visit from his home a thousand kilometers off (Adam - and his Paradise - real of fiction, mostly are believed to have been placed somewhere in the rich wetlands in what is now South Iraq), but then Adam's temple was destroyed at the time of Noah - but as often before Muslims only claim, seldom/never prove, so believe it who wants.

(We may add that some Muslims have corrected this verse to that the Quran is talking about the first house of worship for a monotheistic god, but that is not what the Quran says. Besides: If the Quran or the Hadiths is correct and there have been prophets to all times and every people – 124ooo the Hadith says – Islam will have a tough time to prove that not one single all those prophets or their followers in the very early time before Abraham, have never built even a small house for worship.” Also see 2/127a above.

One extra small detail: The foundations/temple the Quran claims Abraham built for his small family in Mecca - at the time of Abraham a desert and an empty valley - was so big that when the rich Mecca rebuilt it around 600 AD they could not afford to rebuild to the same size according to Hadiths. Any comments necessary?

It is possible today to measure how long time a stone have received sunshine and rays, and for chiseled stones, the process in the new surface starts when the stone is chiseled = roughly at the time a building is built. Neutrons made by cosmic rays react with elements in the stone and produce variants - isotops - of some of them, and from how much isotopsare made, one can calculate the age of the stone surafce, bacause the production of such isitops is fairly constant.

By the way: The oldest known temple - building for revering one or more gods - is in Turkey, not in Arabia, and definitely not for Allah. Gobekli Tepe was built around 9ooo BC - some 7ooo years before Abraham and perhaps 5ooo years before Noah. Actually before even the costal Arabia was settled some 7ooo BC or a little earlier (though some places along the coast much earlier.)

################Added 5. Feb. 2015:

We today discovered that there has been archeological work done in Mecca and the Mecca valley. (By Muslims as only Muslims are permitted there.) The conclusion: "No traces found from buildings earlier than the 4. century AD" (= at least 2100 years after Abraham). "The first temple/mosque likely built in the 5. century AD" (= at least 2200 years after Abraham). No comments necessary.

003 4/152c: "- - - make no distinction between any of the Messengers". Now, Muslims tell that "messenger" is something more distinguished than "prophet", even though messenger only means an errand-boy, whereas prophet is a distinguished title which demands special gifts and abilities. A prophet in reality is something quite a lot more than a messenger-boy, but when Muslims try to tell the opposite, the reason may be that they react to the vague feeling that Muhammad in reality does not merit the title "prophet" (which he in reality does not, as he did not have the gift of prophesying), but all the same want him to have a glorious title. May be there were similar reasons for why Muhammad often used the title "messenger" instead of "prophet" in the Quran.

But that aside: Muslims at least distinguish 5 "prophets" above all the other Biblical ones: 1. Muhammad, 2. Abraham, 3 + 4. Moses + Jesus, 5. Noah. (1. Muhammad in reality was not a real prophet as mentioned. Abraham in the Bible behaved - and is mostly reckoned to have been - a patriarch, more than a prophet, though there one or two places (f.x. 1.Mos. 20/7) in the Bible is said he was a prophet. 3. Moses also is not mainly a prophet in the Bible, but more clearly was one. 4. On the other hand Jesus no doubt was a prophet, but is played down in the Quran for the obvious reason that if not, he could easily outshine Muhammad, because both the Bible and the Quran make it clear Jesus was tightly connected to something supernatural: His birth, his life, his miracles, his foretelling and in the Bible his death, resurrection and disappearance alive to Heaven, in the Quran his being taken up to Heaven (alive) by the god. The special case Jesus, and Muhammad's strong wish to be the greatest, may be the reason why the Quran some places stresses that no prophet is different from the others - and the danger that he should outshine Muhammad, highly likely is the reason why Jesus is played so much down in the Quran and the Hadiths (f.x. ending in 2. Heaven vs. Muhammad in seventh and close to the god).

004 4/163b: "We (Allah*) have sent thee (Muhammad*) inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him - - -". As Muhammad claimed he got much of the Quran by inspiration, it was good psychology to claim also earlier prophets got messages from the god the same way - it "documented" that Muhammad was a prophet like the older ones. This in spite of that the alternative "inspiration" is never mentioned in the Bible.

005 4/163c: "- - - Noah and the Messengers after him - - -". Muhammad claimed there to all times and all places had been messengers/prophets from Allah teaching Islam - included the Biblical prophets and other Biblical persons which all are claimed to have been good Muslims. Hadiths mention the number 124ooo through the times. Neither science nor Islam has been able to find a single documented trace of Islam older than 610 AD when Muhammad started his mission. Also neither science nor Islam has ever found a trace of relevant messengers/prophets. (Just to mention it: As both science and Islam have proved beyond any reasonable and unreasonable doubt that the Bible is not falsified - neither has found one single documented falsification among the some 45ooo relevant scriptures and fragments - it is clear that the Biblical prophets are irrelevant here, as they believed in Yahweh, the old originally Jewish god who in spite of strong, but as normal for Muslims never documented claims, is not identical to Allah, as the teachings and the fundamental elements of the religions are too different.)

006 6/84d: "- - - Noah - - - David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron - - -". 7 time anomalies. See 4/13d above.

007 6/89b: "These were the men (the ones mentioned in verses 6/83 through 6/87*) to whom We (Allah*) gave the Book". The Bible does not mention any book connected to f.x. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ishmael, let alone something like OT or the Quran which is meant here - this also according to science, as no trace of anything similar to the Quran older than 610 AD (when Muhammad started his mission) has ever been found - compared to some 45ooo relevant scriptures and fragments + other traces older than 610 AD from the Bible).

Another point is that no god ever made a book of a quality like the Quran with all its mistakes, etc.

And yet another point is that nomads of those times hardly knew how to read. It is not impossible that Joseph, son of Jacob, learnt how to read and write in Egypt, but but for him it is likely that the first of the central persons in the Bible who knew how to read and write, was Moses.

008 7/59a: "Ye (the people of Noah*) have no other god but Him (Allah)". See 6/106b above.

009 7/59b: "Ye (the people of Noah*) have no other god but Him (Allah)". Contradicted by the Bible, which claims Noah's god was Yahweh. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

010 7/61ba: "- - - I (Noah*) am a prophet from the Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds (plural and wrong*)!" According to the Bible Noah's god was Yahweh not Allah.

011 7/62: "- - - I (Noah*) know from Allah something ye (his people*) know not". Contradicted by the Bible which claims he knew it from Yahweh. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

012 7/63a: (Noah said:) "Do ye (his people*) wonder that there hath come to you a messenger from your Lord (Allah*), through a man of your own people - - -?" Muhammad is making a parallel to himself (he often does in the Quran) - the claim (and in this case mostly correct - as most of the confirmed(?) ones were Jews working among Jews (but not all)) is that prophets come from among their own people, so then it is very normal that Muhammad is an Arab amongst Arabs, Muhammad claimed.

013 7/63b: (Noah said:) "Do ye (his people*) wonder that there hath come to you a messenger from your Lord (Allah*), through a man of your own people - - -?" This - and much more - is not from the Bible.

014 7/63c: "- - - from your (Noah's people*) Lord (Allah*) - - -". The Quran claims that there always and in all places has been preaching about the one god, Allah (but that falsification of the messages has led to belief in all the other false gods). Neither science nor Islam has found anything confirming any of these two claims.

015 7/64b: "They (the people of Noah*) rejected him - - -". See 7/60a above.

###016 7/64c: (A7/46): Muslims – even scholars and Al-Azhar University - do not need difficult language to get troubles with the claimed true meanings and the claimed Truth and reality. 7/64 “do not support the theory of a world deluge” (= the words in that verse are not clear enough to merit such an explanation, they say) – gallantly omitting the fact that Islam and the Quran claim the ark stranded on a 2089 m high mountain (Mt. Al-Jedi) in Syria (not Ararat in Turkey), which is impossible if the deluge was not universal, as the water then had streamed away to lower, not flooded places. And “The Message of the Quran” – also in the 2008 edition!! – as gallantly explains it with the filling up of the Mediterranean Basin “during the Ice Age” (ended some 10ooo - 15ooo years ago), this in spite of that this filling up happened 4-5 million years ago, and also for several other reasons – f.x. wrong place and by far wrong way of filling up – cannot explain the deluge. These are well known facts which the honorable professors have to know, or at least had to and easily could check before they "broadcast" their "explanation". A typical al-Taqiyya (lawful lie - here to explain away a clear mistake and thus defend Islam) as the time for and way of the filling up of the Mediterranean Sea as said are well known scientific facts.

The filling up of the Black Sea some 10-15ooo years ago could be an explanation with some extra "explanations" - - - but it cannot explain the stranding of the Ark on a high mountain in Syria, and neither the terrible weather and the enormous waves, as that too was a slow filling up (at least months of a slowly raising water level.)

As said: Some Muslims – even elite scholars – do not need difficult language to get different meanings – at least different from well known facts. Al-Taqiyya etc. are easy ways out, but produces a number of not intended reactions and thoughts in the listener/reader if found out. Dishonesty does not induce respect or trust.

Also this is a typical example on what you often meet from Muslims: Claimed "explanations" which obviously are wrong because they only "explain" one or some aspects with a case, but then the other aspects prove them wrong. Like here: The Mediterranean once filled up - perhaps an explanation for the flood? - we use it!

But wrong time - some 5 million years too early. Wrong place - the Mediterranean Salt Desert where no man lived (there at places are found sun-baked salt under it), whereas Noah is believed to have lived (if he is not fiction) around what is now south Iraq, and only some 5ooo-6ooo years ago. Wrong effect no. I - such a filling up produces no bad weather. Wrong effect no. II - such a filling up produces no big waves, except just close to the inlet (here Gibraltar). Wrong duration - the Mediterranean took at least 100 years to fill up, as the opening was not very big in the beginning. (Well, there is a new theory saying that the rush of water made a big opening, but even in that case at least 1 - 2 years.) Wrong drama - as it took long time, the water rose just some meters a year, and produced no storm. Wrong finish - such a filling up only could fill up to sea level, whereas the Quran as said tells the Ark ended on the 2089 m tall Mt. Al-Jedi in Syria (correction: According to Wikipedia it lies in Anatolia in Turkey). Also see 7/64d just below.

But the really dark point is that most of these facts are so well known among educated people, that there is no chance that Islam does not know it - not to mention how easy it is to check on such fact. All the same they use it - people with little education or a strong wish to believe, believes in even such fairy tales, not to use the correct word: Al-Taqiyya - the lawful lie - a specialty for Islam.

But such stories - and there are too many of them - totally destroy Islam's and Muslims' credibility among those of educated, intelligent people used to critical thinking. Do you understand why we have to check each and every piece of information from Islamic sources to see if they are true?

Also see 7/64d.

##017 7/64d: “- - - We (Allah*) overwhelmed in the Flood those who rejected Our Signs”. And everybody except those in the Ark were drowned. Well, Islam claims quite correctly that the Quran does not directly say that the Big Flood covered all the Earth (but it says so indirectly, as it tells the ark ended on a 2089 m tall mountain in Anatolia in Turkey (Mt. Al-Judi) - impossible if the flood did not cover the entire world - the water in case had disappeared to not flooded areas). But when they try to explain the Flood as described in the Quran, they not only stumble, but fall head-over-heel down a full hill. This especially as some of the facts they twist, are so well known among learned people, that the honorable learned Muslims obviously have to know they are making up things and conclusions to cheat naïve and/or not learned people - - - some small al-Taqiyyas and/or Kitmans? (lawful lies and half-truths). This is lawful in Islam (yes, al-Taqiyya even is advised in case) if necessary in promoting and/or defending the religion, which is much more essential than to find out what is the truth. But a religion which has to lie, also has things to hide - f.x. that neither Muhammad nor Allah ever was able to prove anything about Islam. Also see 11/40 – 11/42 and 11/43 below. And: How reliable is a religion which has to lie? - and how much of its preaching, arguments and holy(?) books are lies and how much truth? (For some reason or other Islam and its Muslims seldom claim that Islam is the religion of honesty.)

###F.x. they try to explain the flood with the filling up of the Mediterranean Sea (see 7/64a just above) or the Black Sea – which is not even scientific rubbish:

  1. The Mediterranean Sea was filled up via Gibraltar some 4-5 million years ago – long before Homo Sapiens – modern man – ever existed (Homo Sapiens developed in Africa some 160ooo-200ooo (195ooo?) years ago, came out of Africa perhaps some 70ooo years ago, and then something happened in Asia (?) some 60ooo-70ooo (64ooo?) years ago that put him on the trail to or made him to what we are today.)
  2. The filling up of the Mediterranean See took many years – to the tune of a hundred years, this because the opening was not very big in the beginning and the basin enormous. Therefore the water rose slowly – some meters a year. Drama and waves of the kind described in the Quran simply did not exist.
  3. Look at a map and please explain us how the slow filling up of the Mediterranean Sea could make a flood in south Mesopotamia – now approximately south Iraq – where Noah is presumed to have lived?
  4. The filling up of the Black Sea had no connection to the original filling up of the Mediterranean See at all – in stark contradiction to f.x. 7/64, comment 46, in “The Message of the Quran”.
  5. The filling up of the Black Sea happened when the oceans had nearly finished rising because of the melting of the ice from the last Ice Age – we have seen 5200 years ago, but likely 10-15ooo years ago, (the main melting ended 10ooo - 12ooo years ago, but there have been some ups and downs - cooler and warmer periods) but the calculated time varies some. This happened faster, but far from fast enough to produce cataclysms like the ones described in the Quran – months or a few years. All the same one of the theories trying to explain the story of the Big Flood, is this filling up – the story have travelled (or Noah may be lived there and moved later?) and also it has been made more dramatic.
  6. ##Islam claims the ark stranded on a mountain (2089 m tall Mt. Al-Jedi) in Anatolia in Turkey (not Ararat in Turkey) . For the ark to get stranded on a high mountain, the water according to all physical laws must have covered the entire Earth – if not it had streamed to the empty lower places and disappeared/fallen. Muslim scholars know the elementary physical laws as good and well as anybody else. They know that these “explanations” about what the Quran may talk about, calling it a “local” flood are all sheer dishonesty. Either that or what the Quran tells about where the Ark ended, is wrong. At least one of these two has to be wrong – and they know it, but all the same they tell an "explanation" they know must be wrong to naïve and/or uneducated followers and proselytes.
  7. There also is a highly speculative theory that the flood was caused by the impact of an asteroid into the Indian Ocean. References to Chinese history and astronomical constellations in Hindu legends in case date the start of the flood to 10. May 2807 BC. But as said the theory is highly speculative - and no traces of the impact have been found, which it should have been from such a big and recent impact. Also no traces have been found on land from such a flooding, which obviously would have been the case if this theory had been correct (one has found traces from old tsunamis many places around the world, but nothing which can be from 2807 BC and nothing so big as this had to be to explain where the ark ended. An NB here is that as this is found in Hindu legends, it means that other people than Abraham and his people in case survived.
  8. The most likely explanation, though, and one we have not heard from Islam at all, is the fact that there have been found traces of an extreme flood in Iraq from a time that can roughly correspond to Noah (5200 years ago). It is strangely little known – we have seen it mentioned only 2-3 times, and we read a lot of such stuff. Clear traces were found in the 1929 by a British team. The Scandinavian popular scientific magazine LEXICON (Nov. 1992, p. 46) had an article with a picture from the deep layer of clay this flood had left behind. There were traces from human activity under that layer, which indicates that people lived there when it happened. We translate:
  9. "Around the year 3200 BC there was an enormous flooding. The (renown*) British archeologist C. Leonard Woolley made in 1929 a very deep dig in Mesopotamia near the river Euphrates (he often worked near Ur of the Chaldeans*). 12 meters (some 13 yds*) down he and his people found a 2.4 meters thick layer of clay made in water (all layers of clay are made in water - there is no exception from this rule*). Under the clay there were traces from a civilization from before the flood. The layer of clay, therefore, must be a proof for a huge flood lasting for a long time".
  10. This enormous flood may be what is behind the story about the Big Flood. It happened in the right place (Abraham - if he ever lived - according to the Bible was from this area. It also happened roughly at the right time, as science tells Noah lived - if he is not fiction - some 3ooo-4ooo BC. Hundreds of square miles and kilometers of water covering all small humps and hillocks - "mountains" - in the flat land may have been "the entire world" to Noah and his people. But this alternative seldom is mentioned by the religions as it can explain neither the Bible's 5165 meters high Mt. Ararat, nor the Quran's 2089 meters high Mt. al Judi. But what may have happened as tales were told from generation to generation the story grew from the water covering all local small hills, to covering all the mountains of the world. Here we again are back to the fact that it is possible to explain such a mistake in a book written by humans - humans make mistakes sometimes, and there were some 2500 years between 3200 BC and the time when the Genesis was written down. Such an explanation is not possible for a book delivered by an omniscient god. Then who in case delivered the Quran?
  11. (Science tells there likely were more than one such flood there. But that in case does not change the conclusion.)
  12. In none of the explanations Islam gives, it is possible to explain the enormous weather the Quran describes. That only is possible in the last point just above and perhaps the asteroid impact – explanations we never or seldom have met from Muslims. And explanations which cannot explain how the ark could end up on a 2089 m high mountain in Anatolia in Turkey like the Quran claims.
  13. There also is two more facts which are heavy here: Modern DNA shows no "bottleneck" - time when life nearly was wiped out around the claimed time of Noah - neither for humans, nor for animals nor for birds nor for insects. The last major general die-off was some 64 million years ago, and the last major "bottleneck" for humans is connected to the so-called archeological Eve tens of thousands of years ago, whereas Noah lived(?) some 5ooo-6ooo years ago. And also neither geology nor archeology has found traces from a worldwide flood. The tales of the Big Flood are wrong. There may have been an enormous local one in what now is Iraq, but that is it. And again: This is possible to explain as human mistakes in the Bible, but not in the Quran (as the Quran is claimed to be delivered by an omniscient god).

Also see 7/64c above.

One point about Mt. Al-Judi: The reason for the somewhat differing claims for where it is situated, is that nobody really knows where it was. There are several traditions placing it different places. Today the most used claim is a 2089 m high mountain north of Silopi - a town in the southeastern Anatoly region in Turkey - a mountain now named Jabal Judi or Judi Dagh by Muslims and Gardu by Jews and Christians.

018 7/69d: "- - - He (Allah*) made you (the 'Ad tribe) inheritors after the people of Noah - - -". Noah is supposed to have lived in what is now south Iraq, the 'Ad tribe in Arabia. The Quran several places mention that the Arabs had inherited land, houses, etc. from people Allah had exterminated. But 'Ad at least inherited little of such things from the people of Noah - wrong geography.

019 7/75c: “’Know ye (believers*) indeed that Salih (a claimed prophet for the tribe or people Thamud. He according to the Quran lived sometime between Noah and Moses, but after the claimed prophet Hud – Moses is said to speak about him, though not in the Bible*) is a prophet from his Lord?’ They said:’ We do indeed believe in the revelation which has been sent through him.'”

Comment to 7/75 (A7/58 - 7/60 in the 2008 English edition): “The contents of this message (lit., ”that with which he has been sent”) appeared to them justification enough to accept it on its merits, without the need of any esoteric “proof” of Salih’s mission. In this subtle way this statement of faith has a meaning which goes far beyond the story of the Thamud. It is an invitation to the skeptic who is unable to believe in the divine origin of a religious message, to judge it on its intrinsic merits and not make his acceptance dependant on extraneous, and objectively impossible, proofs of its origin: for only through the contents can its truth and validity be established”.

Well, proofs – or at least documentation – is not more “objectively impossible” than that the Christians have got documentation in NT, and partly confirmed in the Quran, for that something supernatural was involved with Jesus and with Yahweh (another question is whether one wants to believe in that documentation or not). It ALWAYS is possible for a god to prove his existence (but not for a human to prove a god). What to be aware of here is that Islam has not one single proof for anything central concerning the religion – not one single bit; only the word of a man with a very special mentality and morality – or amorality. Therefore they have to argue for blind belief and for that proofs are unnecessary, yes, that demands for proofs are intellectual stupidity and lack of intelligence. Which they do. And which is wrong - in all aspects of life the most sure way to be cheated now and then, is to believe blindly. Besides: If intelligence is given by a god, surely his meaning was that we should use it.

One problem here is that it is logically and intellectually impossible to know something that is not proved. One maximally can believe strongly – sometimes so strongly that one believes one knows. But not proved beliefs never are more than beliefs – strong or not. But even strong beliefs ever so often have been – and are – wrong. People “knew” the Earth was flat – and it was wrong. Then people “knew” Earth was the centre of the geocentric universe (see 51/47c) – and it was wrong. Then people “knew” Sol or Helios (2 names for our sun) was the centre of heliocentric universe (see 51/47c) – wrong. And then they “knew” our galaxy (“The Milky Way”) was the entire universe (see 51/47c) – wrong once more. And in all religions – f.x. Islam - there are people that “know” they are right and that all others are wrong - - - and most of them have to be wrong (and Muslims with their somewhat special founder and everything built only on claims and with lots and lots and lots of mistakes, etc. in their holy book, in reality are in a most weak position for being among the ones – if any – who are right).

But because their total lack of proofs and even of real indicia, Islam claims and claims and strongly claims that the texts in a book with lots of mistakes and errors and wrongs, prove that a god has made it, that lack of ability to see this is your stupidity, not that the book is not perfect - and that blind belief is the ideal. Which is a main – if not the main – reason why Muslims and Islam cannot accept or see any mistake in the Quran, no matter how obvious: If there are mistakes in the Quran, it is not from a god - and then Islam is a false religion. That is a possibility too hard to face.

020 8/50c: (A8/57): “If thou ((Muslims*) couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the (unbelievers) at death - - -.” This is the meaning if you guess that the Arab word “yatawaffa” refers to the angels. But if you guess it refers to Allah, the sentence becomes like this: “- - - when He (Allah*) causes (them) to die - - -”. A detail in difference for the one who dies. But for a text which is “correct and identical to Muhammad’s and Allah’s words to the last comma”, even this is a significant proof for that this claim is wrong. And these variants of course also are in the Arab text, as the relevant word(s) there has/have more than one meaning.

021 9/70a: "People of Noah, and 'Ad, and Thamud; the People of Abraham, the men of Midian, and the Cities overthrown". 6 time anomalies if we include the ones only mentioned in the Quran.

022 9/70b: Noah and Abraham are names from the Bible. Ad, Thamud and "the men of Midian" are names of tribes in Arab folklore. Median - really Madyan in case - is not likely to be the same area to which Moses fled after he killed a man in Egypt, according to the Bible, and is a part of Arabia (in the west). But Moses' Midian also may have been in Sudan - one does not know if he fled east or south. And to fulfill the logic: As the Bible mentions Mt. Horeb (likely another name for Mt. Sinai (today Jabal Musa according to Muslims - 34 degrees east, 28.5 degrees east - roughly 70 km north northwest from Sharm-el-Sheik (Sharm el Shaykh) far south in central Sinai) - also the Islam confirms that it was here Moses met his god and got the mission to take the Jews out from Egypt, and this is far from Madyan in Arabia), it is extremely likely Moses' Midian was in Sinai.

To be more exact: The Sinai Mountain, or really a mountainous area, has several peaks, the highest of which are Dsjabal (Mountain) Katharina (2880 m) and Dsjabal Musa (Moses' Mountain - 2285 m). The latter one perhaps is what in the Bible is named Mt. Horeb.(But as the Bible is unclear about exactly where Moses received the 10 commandments, and there is a possibility that this and other central happenings took place in the area of Kadesh-Barnea (some 50 miles/80 km south of Beersheva or Be'er Sheva). If that is the case, there is a possibility for that Mt. Horeb was in Madyan, east of Aqaba. But the large majority of relevant scientist believe Moses' Midian was in Sinai. And if Moses' Midian refers to the land of the Midianites, it is sure it was not Madyan in Arabia.

##There is a little question concerning Midian in the Quran though: Often it is written Madyan. Is this a case similar to Abraham's Faran? Near Mecca there is an area named Paran. Islam has more or less renamed this to Faran, and as the names then are similar, they claim this was Abraham's Faran, even though the Bible indicates it was much further west. We have not been able to find out for sure if Madyan/Midian is a similar story.

023 9/114d: “- - - he (Abraham - said by Islam to be a Muslim*) dissociated himself from him (Abraham’s claimed pagan father*)”. Beware that everybody of any positive consequence whom the Quran “borrows” from the Bible, is transformed to be a Muslim in the Quran - anyone, even Jesus and Adam and Noah (the 5. of the most central 5 Biblical claimed Muslim prophets in Islam) and Joseph, and Moses and all the prophets - and Abraham.

Be no friend even with your parents if they are not Muslims! (This is a quite normal demand in extreme religious sects - the leaders want full control.)

This is one of the rather sad points of the Quran - even a central point: Islam shall mean so much to you, that if even your closest family - children or parents - do not obey you and become Muslims: Leave them and forget them. Fanaticism shall be the norm in Islam. Similar things are said more places in the Quran - Noah should f.x. let his son drown, because the son was no Muslim (which Noah was said to be!!). A nice and benevolent and human religion.

Only Islam really can be your closest friend. Nothing and nobody else - except Muhammad - counts.

The irony here is that according to the Bible (1. Mos. 11/31-32) the two stayed together for many, many years. (And any honest scientist will tell you that according to normal rules, the Bible will be reckoned to be more reliable than the Quran.)

024 10/71a: "- - - the story of Noah". You should beware that the story of Noah in the Quran in many details is different from the one in the Bible - the only perhaps (somewhat?) reliable account of that story. And as the Quran with all its errors, etc. is not from any god - from where did Muhammad get the information or "information"?

025 10/71b: "Behold, he (Noah*) said to his people: 'O my People - - -'". How could this end up in the claimed "Mother Book" (of which the Quran is a copy according to Muhammad) billions of years before it was said? One more of the many texts or quotes in the Quran which could not have been reliably written into the claimed "Mother Book" (13/39b, 43/4b+c, 85/21-22) in Heaven (of which the Quran is claimed to be a copy) eons ago, unless predestination was and is 100% like the Quran claims many places (if you look, you will find more cases than we mention - we only mention some of the obvious ones). If man has free will - even partly only (an expression some Muslims use to flee from the problem full predestination contra free will for man (and also contra that there is no meaning in praying to Allah for help, if everything already is predestined in accordance with a plan "nobody and nothing can change" - a problem which Muslims seldom mention), and an expression no Muslim we have met has ever defined) - and can change his mind, full and reliable clairvoyance about the future, not to mention the distant future, is impossible even for a god, as the man always could/can change his mind or his words once more, in spite of Islam's claims. There are at least 5 reasons - at least 3 of them unavoidable - for this:

  1. When something is changed, automatically the future is changed.
  2. The laws of chaos will be at work and change things, if even a tiny part is made different. And multiply even a tiny change with some billion people through the centuries, and many and also big things will be changed.
  3. The displacement of a happening - f.x. the death of a warrior in battle - of only one yard or one minute may or even will change the future forever (that yard or minute f.x. may mean that the warrior killed - or not killed - an opponent). The laws of chaos and the "Butterfly Effect" and the "Domino Effect" kick in.

  4. The so-called "Butterfly Effect"; "a butterfly flapping its wing in Brazil may cause a storm in China later on" or "a small bump may overturn a big load".
  5. The so-called "Domino Effect": Any change will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change - - - and so on forever. Also each cause may cause one or more or many changes. And: The Butterfly Effect only may happen, whereas the Domino Effect is unavoidable and inexorable - a main reason why if you in a battle is killed 5 meters from or 5 minutes later than where and when Allah has predestined - not to mention if you die when tilling your fields 50 miles off - unavoidably the entire future of the world is changed. Perhaps not much changed, but like said; multiply it with many billion people through the centuries, and the world is totally changed. And full clairvoyance of course totally impossible - except in occultism, mysticism, made up legends, and in fairy tales.

This that Allah predestines everything like the Quran claims and states many places, is an essential point, because besides totally removing the free will of man (in spite of the Quran's claims of such free will, or some Muslims' adjusted "partly free will for man" - to adjust the meanings where the texts in the Quran are wrong, is typical for Islam and its Muslims) - it also removes the moral behind Allah's punishing (and rewarding) persons for what they say and do - Allah cannot reward or punish people for things he himself has forced them to say or do, and still expect to be believed when he (Muhammad?) claims to be a good or benevolent or moral or just god. Also see 2/51b and 3/24a above.

And as mentioned above, full predestination also makes prayers to Allah meaningless, as everything already is predestined according to Allah's Plan - a Plan which no prayer ("nobody and nothing") can change.

026 10/71d: "- - - I (Noah*) put my trust in Allah". Noah is claimed to be a good Muslim. But there exists no documented or in other ways proved traces of Islam inside or outside the Quran older than 610 AD. A lot of words and claims, but nothing else - and words and claims are very cheap, especially when used for propaganda. And as the Quran with all its errors is not from any god - from where did Muhammad get this information or "information"?

027 10/71e: "- - - I (Noah*) put my trust in Allah". Contradicted by the Bible, which says his god was Yahweh. (But then Muhammad normally, but wrongly, mixes those two gods - or claimed god(s)). Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

028 10/72a: "- - - no reward have I (Noah*) asked of you (his followers*) - - -". This was one of Muhammad's claims about himself, and then it was psychologically wise to "show" that former claimed prophet said the same - it made Muhammad a normal prophet. And Muhammad only claimed 20% of everything stolen, included enslaved victims - 100% if they did not have to fight for it - some 2.5% of all your belongings each and every year in tax (zakat), all fit men as warriors for him whenever he wanted, 100% power, 100% dictatorship, 100% control of what you said and meant. And lots of women (at least 36 are known by name). Of course this was all (except the women?) for Allah, but here on Earth the reality was for Muhammad. Yes, we agree; Muhammad like Noah demanded no reward. Or - - -?

029 10/72b: "- - - I (Noah*) have been commanded to be of those who submit to Allah's Will - - -". See 10/71d above.

030 10/73a: "They (Noah's people*) rejected him (Noah*) - - -". See 10/71b above.

031 10/73d: "Then see what was the end of those who were warned (but heeded not)!" Yes, something happened according to the books - but who was behind it? - Yahweh or Allah? - or nature? (One possible explanation concerning Noah is an extreme natural flooding which has been enlarged through retelling over the generations. One has found traces from such a flooding in Iraq some 5-6ooo years ago (around 3200 BC) - roughly at the time of a possible Noah - according to f.x. the former Scandinavian popular scientific magazine Lexicon.)

(Around the year 3200 BC there was an enormous flooding. The (renown*) British archeologist C. Leonard Woolley made in 1929 a very deep dig in Mesopotamia near the river Euphrates (he often worked near Ur of the Chaldeans*). 12 meters (some 13 yds*) down he and his people found a 2.4 meters thick layer of clay made in water (all layers of clay are made in water - there is no exception from this rule*). Under the clay there were traces from a civilization from before the flood. The layer of clay, therefore, must be a proof for a huge flood lasting for a long time".

  • This enormous flood may be what is behind the story about the Big Flood. It happened in the right place (Noah - if he ever lived - according to the Bible was from this area. It also happened roughly at the right time, as science tells Noah lived - if he is not fiction - some 3ooo-4ooo BC. Hundreds of square miles and kilometers of water covering all small humps and hillocks - "mountains" - in the flat land may have been "the entire world" to Noah and his people. But this alternative seldom is mentioned by the religions as it can explain neither the Bible's 5165 meters high Mt. Ararat, nor the Quran's 2089 meters high Mt. al Judi. But what may have happened as tales were told from generation to generation the story grew from the water covering all local small hills, to covering all the mountains of the world. Here we again are back to the fact that it is possible to explain such a mistake in a book written by humans - humans make mistakes sometimes, and there were some 2500 years between 3200 BC and the time when the Genesis was written down. Such an explanation is not possible for a book delivered by an omniscient god. Then who in case delivered the Quran?)
  • (Science tells there likely were more than one such flood there. But that in case does not change the conclusion.)
  • It may here be relevant that according to Islam (YA comment 1531) Noah lived somewhere in or near the Tigris Valley "800 to 900 miles (some 1300-1500 km*) from the Persian Gulf". Such an enormous flooding likely has included also Tigris in the flat Mesopotamia.

     

    One point about Mt. Al-Judi: The reason for the somewhat differing claims for where it is situated, is that nobody really knows where it was. There are several traditions placing it different places. Today the most used claim is a 2089 m high mountain north of Silopi - a town in the southeastern Anatoly region in Turkey - a mountain now named Jabal Judi or Judi Dagh by Muslims and Gardu by Jews and Christians.

    032 10/74a: "Then after him (Noah*) We (Allah*) sent (many) messengers to their Peoples - - -". Hadiths claims that there have been 124ooo messengers/prophets for Allah through the times. Except for the Biblical ones (who Muhammad wrongly spoke about Allah) not one single trace has ever been found from any of them - not in history, not in religion, not in architecture/decoration, not in folklore, not in legends, not even in fairy tales older than 610 AD. The claim is wrong unless Islam proves the opposite.

    033 11/25-49: The story about Noah is told several times in the Quran - the Quran is not very good literature in this way, too. The only known older source for information (?) about Noah, is the Bible - mainly 1. Mos. 5/28 to 9/28. Some of what is told about him in the Quran, is like in the Bible, some is a dramatizing of what is told about him in the Bible, some has little or nothing to do with what is told about him in the Bible - and some conflicts with what is told in the Bible. As Muhammad had no divine connections in spite of his claims - no god was ever involved in a book of a quality like the Quran with all its mistakes, etc. and all its deplorable quality as literature - and thus had no sources of information that way, from where did he get this new information?

    034 11/25-26: Noah had a clear warning from Allah. These details are not from the Bible. And science has found not one single trace from Islam older than 610 AD. Not to mention: Also Islam has been unable to prove anything or any traces from its religion older than 610 AD.

    035 11/25b: "We (here claimed to be Allah*) sent Noah to his People (with a mission) - - -". This is not from the Bible - in the Bible the people were so bad that Yahweh just made his decision and then told Noah to build his ark.

    036 11/25c: "I (Noah*) have come to you with a Clear Warning - - -". Noah here mimics Muhammad - like the Quran tells more or less all claimed prophets in the book do. Whether the tales are true or not, they have the effect that Muhammad's words seems to be normal for prophets, and thus "tell" that Muhammad was a normal prophet.

    037 11/26a: "That ye (the people of Noah*) serve none but Allah - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which says that the involved god was Yahweh. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    038 11/26b: "That ye (the people of Noah*) serve none but Allah: verily, I do fear for you the Penalty of a Grievous Day". It definitely is no proved verity/truth. See 11/25c above.

    039 11/27a: Noah got similar reception like Muhammad in Mecca = Muhammad's reception is normal (this was before he gained power) for a prophet = Muhammad is a normal prophet. Good for his few followers to "know". (There are many stories like this in the Quran - all prophets are more or less parallel stories to Muhammad's up to the time when the verse was told to his followers.)

    040 11/27c: "But the Chiefs of the Unbelievers among his People said: 'We see (in) thee (Noah*) nothing but a man like ourselves - - -". See 11/12c above.

    041 11/27d: "- - - nor do we (Noah's contemporaries*) see that any follow thee (Noah*) but the meanest among us - - -". This means Noah had followers according to the Quran. Which again means they were taken on board the ark, like mentioned in 11/40 - a prophet could not leave good Muslims to drown. In the Bible only Noah and his family - 8 persons - were on board. AND NB: In 11/40 also the Quran tells that only the animals + not even the whole of Noah's family was to enter the ark. The followers were ditched?

    But by adding poor followers, Muhammad got the picture of Noah's situation to be a close parallel to his own in 621 AD. Ergo poor followers in the beginning were a sign for Muhammad being a real prophet. Psychologically a good story to tell Muhammad's follower They are so obvious to see, that we only point to some of them.

    042 11/28a: “- - - Clear Sign - - -“. In this case it is said to be Noah who was speaking, and according to the Quran Noah was a devoted Muslim - - - but there never was a clear sign/proof for anything concerning Allah – not anything at all is proved. (This is one of the main reasons why blind belief is demanded and glorified by Muhammad and by Islam).

    043 11/29a: "I (in this case Noah*) ask you for no wealth in return (for my preaching*) - - -". This is identical to one of Muhammad's slogans or claims. Muhammad claimed to be of an old line of prophets which included among others Noah, and then his words gained more weight if the old prophets experienced and said the same as he - an "indication" for that he was what he claimed. That he in reality demanded much wealth (for bribes) and power "for Allah" and lots of women, is another story. This verse also is one of the many which has no similarity with what is told in the Bible.

    #044 11/30a: "Who will help me (Noah*) against Allah if I drove them (the believers in Allah - 11/29*) away?" Contradicted by the Bible - there only Noah's nearest family were believers and could enter the ark. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    045 11/31a: "I (in this case Noah*) tell you not that with me are the Treasures of Allah, nor do I know what is hidden (Muhammad was unable to foretell the future - and strangely so was Noah according to the Quran*) - - -". The main topic similar to 11/29 above.

    ##046 11/31b: "- - - nor do I (Noah aka Muhammad*) know what is hidden - - -". = I do not see the future = I cannot make prophesies. And a man who cannot make prophesies is no real prophet. (There are made other definitions for a prophet, but how many are willing to accept that a person unable to make prophesies is a real prophet? In the really old Israel the title even was "a seer" not "a prophet".) Muhammad just "borrowed" this weighty and glorious title, and may be needed one more alibi for that prophets could lack the ability to make prophesies. (But what kind of prophet is one such who is unable to make prophesies - and on top of all never is able to produce a single proof for a connection to a god?)

    But note how Muhammad made Noah like himself = as Noah was a prophet, the claimed similarity "proved" that also Muhammad was one. Muhammad made similar "adjustments" of old stories many places in the Quran, and thus "proved" he himself had to be a prophet, as he was treated just like he claimed the old and perhaps real prophets were treated.

    047 11/31c: "- - - nor claim I (Noah aka Muhammad*) to be an angel". Which was as well, because the real and historical Muhammad - in contrast to the glorified picture in Islam - was very far from being an angel, this even in Islamic literature (skip the glorification and read his demands, incitements and deeds, etc. and you get the true Muhammad).

    048 11/32b: "They (Noah's people*) said: 'O Noah! - - -". See 11/12c above.

    049 11/32c: "- - - bring upon us (non-Muslims*) what thou (Noah*) what thou threaten us with - - -". = Bring us proof. Like so many other stories about prophets or claimed prophets in the Quran an exact parallel to Muhammad's situation, and thus a "confirmation" of that Muhammad was a prophet like the old ones. But Muhammad never was able to prove anything - in contrast to f.x. Noah.

    050 11/33b: "- - - Allah - - -". As mentioned: According to the Bible Noah's god was Yahweh, not Allah.

    051 11/34b: "Of no profit will be my (Noah's*) council to you (his non-Muslim (!) opponents), much as I desire to give you (good) council, if it be that Allah willeth to leave you astray - - -". The predestination again - if Allah has decided that you are to end in Hell, nothing and nobody can change your fate.

    052 11/35b: "He (Noah? Muhammad?*) has forged it?" Already then some people saw that things might be wrong. This always has been a suspicion. And if even Noah met the suspicion, it was easier for Muhammad's followers to tackle it.

    053 11/35c: (A11/54 – in 2008 edition A11/57): In a new repetition of the story about Noah – it is repeated many times in the Quran – comes this: “Or do they (people*) say, ‘He has forged it?’ Say: ‘If I had forged it, on me were my sin! And I am free of the sins of which ye are guilty.” Does this refer to the story of Noah? – that he had forged that story? Or does it refer to the entire Quran? – or both? The disposition of the texts in the book is so bad with bits and pieces strewn around in a mix, and repetitions and repetitions of the same stories and arguments and conclusions, so anything is possible when it comes to the possibility to find loose bits of tale or argument at “funny” places. In this case Islam simply is at a loss to know what to believe. One tends to think the verse is a passage inserted in the story, and that Muhammad is talking both about the story of Noah and about the complete Quran (Ibn Kathir, Tabari). But it is impossible to know. Such “quoting in wrong context” or inserting of text where it does not belong, is very usual in the Quran – so usual that Islam use a special name for it: “A parenthetic inclusion” or similar. It is pretty confusing sometimes, and absolutely does not result in “a clear language easy to understand” – f.x. like here where it is impossible to be sure of exactly he is talking about. To say the least of it: Not a piece of good literature.

    From the text it seems like the book has switched to Muhammad in this sentence.

    054 11/36a: "It was revealed to Noah: 'None of thy People will believe except those who believe already!". According to other places in the Quran this should mean the nearest family of Noah except one son and may be his wife (though if we understand correctly the Quran indicates she survived the flood, but all the same ended in Hell later) + "those who believe" in 11/29. Little of this is in accordance with the Bible.

    #055 11/38: (A11/57 – in 2008 edition A11/61): Noah said to the surrounding people: “If you ridicule us now (for building the ark*), we (in our turn) can look down on you with ridicule likewise”. But according to Islam Noah was a prophet, and it is impossible for Islam to think that a prophet may be human enough to ridicule or scoffing anyone (though read the Quran and you will see Muhammad did so many times). #####Therefore the text must be wrong and in reality mean something else – yet another place where Islamic scholars say the text in the Quran must be wrong, though a small wrong this time. Noah must mean “ignorant” – “If you think us ignorant now, we think you ignorant who do not accept our story” to make a longer quotation short (Zamakhshari, Baghawi). Honestly it may be enough confusing to understand unclear text, but one also has to “mend” clear text Islam does not like. Allah really is clumsy when he is speaking.

    Another point: As Muhammad ridiculed lots of non-Muslims, these arguments then should be one more indication for that Muhammad was no real prophet.

    ###056 11/40a: (A11/58 – in 2008 edition A11/62): “- - - and the fountains of the earth gushed forth - - -.” Literal meaning (also see 11/40b just below) in the Arab text: “- - - the face of the earth boiled over - - -.” To quote “The Message of the Quran”: “This phrase has been subject to several conflicting interpretations.” - the literal meaning cannot be true. Unclear words to say the least of it. And it really is a confusing sentence, among other reasons because only liquids can boil. And to make the confusion complete, modern Islam even in 2008 once more resort to the filling up of the Mediterranean basin, which happened some 5 million years ago – nearly at the time of the first traces of the first possible real forefathers of Homo Sapiens 6 million years ago, and LONG before Homo Sapiens (modern man) himself ever existed (started 160oo - 200ooo years ago - perhaps 195oo years ago), not to mention some million years before a possible Noah a few thousand years ago. To be impolite: What the in Islam respected “The Message of the Quran” writes about this, is gobbledygook and as wrong and meaningless as that word. But when texts in the Quran are so confusing that even the top Islamic thinkers often are at a loss understanding and agreeing on what the texts really mean, and other times only agree that it cannot mean what it says – how then can Muslims repeat and repeat and repeat that everything in the Quran is clear and easy to understand, and demand to be believed?

    And how can top learned men in Islam use so wrong facts – to seduce naïve and uneducated people? – that are so well known and so easy to check and even not too infrequently mentioned in media, and then demand to be believed when they claim to have written it in good faith? Especially so as it just is not the first – and neither the last – time they “bend” scientific and other facts to fit their wishes.

    ###057 11/40b: "- - - and the fountains of the earth gushed forth (and made the flood for Noah*) - - -.” The Quran does not explicit say that the flood covered the entire world, and as there are no traces of such a flood found, many Muslims try to tell you that the flood only was regional. Not educated Muslims may honestly believe so, but the educated ones know that is one more untrue story – another al-Taqiyya or Kitman – because the Quran clearly tells that the Ark ended on a high mountain in Syria (Correction: Some sources say Syria, but Wikipedia that it lies in Anatolia in Turkey) , Mt. Al-Judi (11/44b), 2089 m high, something which demanded so high a level of water that it was physically impossible unless the flood was universal (the water had disappeared to non-flooded places if not). Perhaps 1ooo - 2ooo m above our sea level? - or more? (The Bible says over even the highest mountains (which in case mean some 8460 m above the present sea level).

    But that makes a problem for this verse. Really big quantities of water - giving may be 2000 m or more of water all over the globe (8848+ m to cover "the highest mountains" to quote the Bible = roughly 4 times all the water in all oceans, seas, lakes, and rivers on Earth today added) - could not gush forth from the Earth without leaving huge empty holes in there – either really empty, or at least with highly reduced pressure, (though most likely empty, as it is nearly impossible to compress water and then explain the gushing with expansion of the water (to compress water to double density, we have read that you need a pressure of 44000ooo kg/cm2 – or very roughly 30 times the pressure at the centre of Earth)). These holes would be too big (in order to contain enough water - 2ooo m = roughly as much waters as in all oceans, seas, glaciers and lakes on Earth today) to be stable, and would collapse. There is nowhere on Earth traces from such big collapses. (And not least: To where did the water disappear afterwards? And what mechanism made it first gush forth and then return down?)

    (It is here among other places you will meet the explanation like the flood = the filling up of the Mediterranean Basin – a story so obviously an al-Taqiyya (lawful lie) that it is distasteful. That filling up happened 4 – 5 million years ago, and long before modern man existed. Besides it happened because Africa and Europe slowly drifted apart and the Strait of Gibraltar very slowly opened – centimeters a year – which means that the opening and thus the stream of water was small in the beginning. The filling up took a hundred years and may be much more, with the water level rising slowly – one or a few meters a year – and nothing like the cataclysm of the flood of Noah. Something no educated Muslim has an excuse for not checking up before telling stories like this, especially since this is a well known story among educated people, and they most likely were aware of the real facts before spinning such a tale. (There is a theory that the water may have dug out a canal much faster, but even in that case it took some years).

    Also the filling up of the Black Sea some thousands years ago cannot explain the Big Flood - not like that flood is described.

    One point about Mt. Al-Judi: The reason for the somewhat differing claims for where it is situated, is that nobody really knows where it was. There are several traditions placing it different places. Today the most used claim is a 2089 m high mountain north of Silopi - a town in the southeastern Anatoly region in Turkey - a mountain now named Jabal Judi or Judi Dagh by Muslims and Gardu by Jews and Christians.

    058 11/40c (YA1533): “- - - and the fountains of the earth gushed forth - - -.” But the Arab expression “far al tannur” has two literal meanings (see also 11/40a above): The one already mentioned and “- - - the oven (of Allah’s Wrath) boiled over - - -.” Which one do you like best? And is the language as clear as Islam claims?

    ##059 11/40d: “We (Allah*) said (to Noah*):’Embark therein (the ark*), of each kind (of animals*) two - male and female, and your family - - -”. The Quran says nothing about the size of the ark. But the Bible according to the scientific magazine Lexicon says nearly 200 m long, some 30 m wide and some 12 m high with 3 floors. That makes some 18000 square meters roughly speaking. (NIV tells 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high = 140 m long, 23 m wide and 13.5 m high. With 3 floors that means some 9600 sq. m. only.) But there are much more than 10ooo kinds of “normal” animals, nearly 2ooo kinds of birds, and at least 10 million kinds of insects and other insect-like animals, and easily a million other small animals – like slugs, worms, etc. There simply would not be enough space for so many, not to mention 2 of each. In addition it would be the question of food for all the animals. The Quran says nothing about how long time the voyage lasted, but according to the Bible it lasted about one year (1. Mos. 7/11 and 1. Mos. 8/13-14). That would take one heck of a lot of food for so many animals - and how did they f.x. store the meat for the carnivores, or live insects for some spiders, etc.? All that food would take up a lot of space - much more than the animals themselves. Impossible in that “small” boat. And on top of that, there was the question of special food for special animals - eucalyptus leaves for the koala bears f.x. It further is likely that Noah’s home was in the south of Iraq (if he ever existed) according to science - - - and then there is the question where they found f.x. reindeer, polar bears, caribous, condors, lamas, pumas, kangaroos, orangutans, koalas, etc., etc., just to mention a few. And there is the question on who were feeding and giving water to all these animals, not to mention who kept it all clean - the family of Noah after all was rather small (8 according to the Bible).

    Also the laws of nature tell that one pair of each would not be enough to establish all the animal races - no DNA variety. And the DNA variety science has found, talks about very different lengths of time since most animal groups were just a few ones (so-called "bottle-necks") and few if any two animals shows "bottle-necks" at the same time - and not one shows a "bottle-neck" 5ooo-7ooo years ago (well, perhaps the cheetah). The story simply is not true. There is a small chance that a man like Noah once lived and survived a flood big enough for him to seem to cover the entire world - f.x. he survived with his family and his cattle, etc. Science knows about one or two really huge floods at roughly the right time. But everything is in an after all much smaller scale. And not like told by a presumed omniscient god in the Quran (or for that case in the Bible).

    Muslims try to reduce the problems by telling that Noah only should bring two of each of domesticated cattle - but that is not what the Quran says, and besides: How did all the other animals survive if the flood was universal? - and the DNA variety? - and the missing "bottle-necks"? But they further tell that it just was a big, but regional flood - which is not said in the Quran, but it as mentioned also is not said it was worldwide (but see the point about Mt. Al-Judi - 11/44b). And then some make a real blunder - or try cheating - because what follows below is not well known by most people, though well known to the more educated ones, and thus cheating of the “rank and file” is easy: F.x. “The Message of the Quran”, certified by a top Muslim university (Al-Azhar Al-Sharif Islamic Research Academy, Cairo) tells:

    1. "The flood must have been the filling up of the Mediterranean Sea" - without mentioning that this happened (as mentioned; when the Gibraltar Strait opened) some 4 - 5 million years ago or more, and very long before modern man existed.
    2. All this also without mentioning that the filling up took many years - may be as much as 100 or more - as the opening was small in the beginning and the stream also slowed down before the basin was full. Near what is now Israel and Egypt the water rose just one or some meters a year - no terribly rough flooding, like described in the Quran (f.x. 11/42).
    3. How could the slow filling up of that sea give a flash flood in what is now Iraq, where this is supposed to have happened? - in or near south Iraq somewhere.
    4. Not to mention how could the filling up of the Mediterranean Sea make the Ark end up on the 2089 m high Mt. Al-Judi? (11/44b).
    5. May be they mix it up with the filling up of the Black Sea (also mentioned by Muslims)? But also that took time (months or a few years) - and was far from Iraq. This happened after the last ice age that stopped 10ooo – may be as late as under a warm period (even less ice) some 5200 years ago if we remember correctly. The time may be ok, but then either Noah or the story in case has travelled – and also this filling up cannot explain the weather and the waves and the landing on Mt. al-Judi.(11/44b).
    6. There also is a very speculative theory about an asteroid or something falling into the Indian Ocean. But it is a very speculative theory only built on old legends and a hint of Chinese history. In China there is a tale about a huge flood late in the reign of Empress Nu Wa, and a corresponding one in India that connect it to a very rare planet constellation. This alignment of the planets happened 10. May 2807 BC, and if everything is true the big flood started that date - may be connected to the not documented but claimed landing of an asteroid in the Indian Ocean. But the theory is very speculative.(Popular scientific magazine "Discover" 11/2007).
    7. Finally there is the extreme, but little known flood in Mesopotamia – now approximately Iraq – some 5200 years ago. It may easily explain the flood itself, and if this was an extraordinary “ordinary” flood, it also may explain the weather. But even if big, it was a local happening. (But then the Quran does not directly claim it was covering the entire world – but on the other hand see the point about Mt. Al-Judi - 11/44b).
    8. And as mentioned there is the conundrum of the tall mountain which does not fit the Muslim “explanations” about a “local” flood: The Quran claims the ark stranded on a mountain in Syria (Mount al-Judi – earlier named Qardu (11/44) - not Ararat in Turkey). For the ark to have stranded on a 2089 m high mountain, the flood had to be universal – if not the water had streamed away to empty, lower places – elementary knowledge of physics. No Muslim claiming a local flood, ever mention this - the main thing is to gloss over mistakes in the Quran to make the religion seem sound, not to find out what is true. This in spite of the ominous future for all Muslims if the Quran is not from a god and thus Islam is a made up religion - not to mention if there somewhere else exists a god who would not like their moral code etc. (not many gods will do - too immoral - but after all perhaps some of the dark or bloody ones.

     

    For a university to back a bluff like the flood = filling up the Mediterranean Sea, etc. is dishonest and tells something, especially when they "forget" 11/44 (11/44b) and other verses and Mt. al-Judi which is a well known "fact" to religiously educated Muslims - the professors at a university have to know such facts, and know it is wrong, or at least check if they were not sure. The way the Mediterranean was filled up is a well known fact among also Muslims with relevant education, included professors at the big universities. Similar claims in 23/27 – 11/40.

    One point about Mt. Al-Judi: The reason for the somewhat differing claims for where it is situated, is that nobody really knows where it was. There are several traditions placing it different places. Today the most used claim is a 2089 m high mountain north of Silopi - a town in the southeastern Anatoly region in Turkey - a mountain now named Jabal Judi or Judi Dagh by Muslims and Gardu by Jews and Christians.

    060 11/40e: "Embark therein (in the ark*) - - - (included*) the Believers". This tells that not only Noah and his family were on board, but also some followers. This contradicts the Bible, where only Noah and his family were there - included all his 3 sons (in the Quran one is lost). On the other hand, by introducing some poor followers (11/27) it was possible for Muhammad to make Noah's situation before the flood a parallel to his own in Mecca in 621 AD when this surah was released, and thus indicate that Muhammad's situation was rather normal for prophets.

    061 11/41a: "- - - in the name of Allah - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which clearly states that Noah's god was Yahweh, not Allah. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    #062 11/42a: “So the Ark floated with them on waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son (who was at the shore*) - - -”. When a boat is floating among waves like mountains, it is not possible to communicate with anyone ashore. Muhammad, living in a desert, may not have known. But no god had made a mistake like this - telling they could communicate. That kind of waves are too noisy, and so is the wind which normally accompanies that kind of seas, plus you both - and especially the boat - have to stay far from the shore not to be taken by the waves and smashed against the mentioned shore. Dramatic fairy tale with wrong facts. Contradicts anything known for anyone who has ever been close to the roaring sea.

    This also is a proof for that the dramatic scenarios in the Quran cannot be explained with the filling of the Mediterranean or the Black Sea: Even an enormous waterfall does not produce waves “like mountains“ - a relatively stable stream of water does not do that except close to the waterfall, even when it is enormous, and as they are reduced proportionally to the distance they run – double distance = half the energy per meter wave front, because they spread out in a (semi) circle (NB: This does not go for windblown waves with linear wave fronts, and definitely not if the wind is still blowing and transferring energy to the waves – only where the source of the waves is a “point” like a waterfall – or a stone thrown into the water). And a waterfall – no matter how big - never produce a terrible storm (mentioned other places).

    This claimed part of the story is not from the Bible.

    063 11/42b: Noah cried to his son, "who had separated himself from the rest", from the ark floating among huge waves: "Embark with us - - -". It is not possibly possible to get from a shore to a ship in that kind of weather. Any god had known, but desert Arabs likely not. Who made the Quran?

    This claimed part of the story is not from the Bible.

    064 11/42c: Noah cried to his son, "who had separated himself from the rest", from the ark floating among huge waves: "Embark with us - - -". This contradicts the Bible, which tells that all the 3 sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth (numbers or names here not given in the Quran) entered the ark (1. Mos. 7/13)

    This claimed part of the story is not from the Bible.

    065 11/43a: “The son (of Noah*) replied - - -“. In that kind of weather neither a call nor a reply was possible – the roaring of the wind and the crashing of the waves are far too noisy even if a short distance had been possible. In addition you have the effect of the wind “blowing away” the sound of your voice. Any god had known - then who made the Quran? Also see 11/42b above.

    This claimed part of the story is not from the Bible.

    066 11/43c: “The son (of Noah*) replied: 'I will betake myself to some mountain - - -“. How could this end up in the claimed "Mother Book" (of which the Quran is a copy according to Muhammad) billions of years before it was said? One more of the many texts or quotes in the Quran which could not have been reliably written into the claimed "Mother Book" (13/39b, 43/4b+c, 85/21-22) in Heaven (of which the Quran is claimed to be a copy) eons ago, unless predestination was and is 100% like the Quran claims many places (if you look, you will find more cases than we mention - we only mention some of the obvious ones). If man has free will - even partly only (an expression some Muslims use to flee from the problem full predestination contra free will for man (and also contra that there is no meaning in praying to Allah for help, if everything already is predestined in accordance with a plan "nobody and nothing can change" - a problem which Muslims seldom mention), and an expression no Muslim we have met has ever defined) - and can change his mind, full and reliable clairvoyance about the future, not to mention the distant future, is impossible even for a god, as the man always could/can change his mind or his words once more, in spite of Islam's claims. There are at least 5 reasons - at least 3 of them unavoidable - for this:

    1. When something is changed, automatically the future is changed.
    2. The laws of chaos will be at work and change things, if even a tiny part is made different. And multiply even a tiny change with some billion people through the centuries, and many and also big things will be changed.
    3. The displacement of a happening - f.x. the death of a warrior in battle - of only one yard or one minute may or even will change the future forever (that yard or minute f.x. may mean that the warrior killed - or not killed - an opponent). The laws of chaos and the "Butterfly Effect" and the "Domino Effect" kick in.

    4. The so-called "Butterfly Effect"; "a butterfly flapping its wing in Brazil may cause a storm in China later on" or "a small bump may overturn a big load".
    5. The so-called "Domino Effect": Any change will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change - - - and so on forever. Also each cause may cause one or more or many changes. And: The Butterfly Effect only may happen, whereas the Domino Effect is unavoidable and inexorable - a main reason why if you in a battle is killed 5 meters from or 5 minutes later than where and when Allah has predestined - not to mention if you die when tilling your fields 50 miles off - unavoidably the entire future of the world is changed. Perhaps not much changed, but like said; multiply it with many billion people through the centuries, and the world is totally changed. And full clairvoyance of course totally impossible - except in occultism, mysticism, made up legends, and in fairy tales.

     

    This that Allah predestines everything like the Quran claims and states many places, is an essential point, because besides totally removing the free will of man (in spite of the Quran's claims of such free will, or some Muslims' adjusted "partly free will for man" - to adjust the meanings where the texts in the Quran are wrong, is typical for Islam and its Muslims) - it also removes the moral behind Allah's punishing (and rewarding) persons for what they say and do - Allah cannot reward or punish people for things he himself has forced them to say or do, and still expect to be believed when he (Muhammad?) claims to be a good or benevolent or moral or just god. Also see 2/51b and 3/24a above.

    And as mentioned above, full predestination also makes prayers to Allah meaningless, as everything already is predestined according to Allah's Plan - a Plan which no prayer ("nobody and nothing") can change.

    This claimed part of the story is not from the Bible.

    067 11/43d: “The son (of Noah*) replied - - -“. This conversation contradicts both the Bible and what was physically possible - it is ever so obvious that Muhammad never had been close to a shore in a storm with a roaring sea. No god had made a blunder like this. Then who made the Quran?

    This claimed part of the story is not from the Bible.

    068 11/43f: "- - - the Command of Allah - - -". Contradicted by the Bibles, which says the involved god was Yahweh, not Allah. (Actually much/most of the Quran's tales about Noah and the big flood are not from the Bible, and not a little directly contradicts the Bible. This in spite of the fact that the Bible was and is the only known source for information(?) about that flood - well, Muslims claim he got information from Allah, but as the Quran with all its mistakes, etc. is from no god, this claim is not correct. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    069 11/43h: “- - - and the son (of Noah*) was among those who was overwhelmed in the Flood”. (Another place the Quran also tells that Nosh’s wife also ended in Hell, though not yet). Contradiction:

    1. 21/76: “We (Allah*) listened to his (Noah’s*) (prayers) and delivered him and his family from great distress”. His family: All saved. But all the same his son drowned. (And he only had 3 according to the Bible) The mathematics and the logic are difficult. Also a contradiction of the Bible: In the Bible he lost no son.
    2.  

      070 11/43i: “- - - and the son (of Noah*) was among those who was overwhelmed in the Flood”. Contradicted by the Bible, which tells that all the 3 sons of Noah survived. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

      071 11/44a: “O, earth swallow up thy water - - -“. This is from the big flood of Noah. For Earth to swallow that much water is physically impossible. If the flood was local like some Muslims like to tell, the water could go to the sea. But the fact that the Quran tells the ark ended at the 2089 m high Mt. al-Judi (11/44b - earlier Mt. Qardu according to Muhammad Asad: “The Message of the Quran”) in Syria (According to Wikipedia it lies in Anatolia in Turkey) indicates that it was something really big – the water cannot reach high up on a tall mountain in Syria, unless the water level is roughly the same all over the world. It was and is impossible for Earth to swallow that amount of water. (We may also add that science has found no traces from that big a flood, which they should have done if it happened just some millennia ago.)

    IF THE WATER COVERED ALL MOUNTAINS LIKE THE BIBLE SAYS, THERE MUST HAVE BEEN ROUGHLY 4 TIMES AS MUCH WATER EXTRA AS WHAT TODAY ARE IN ALL OCEANS LAKES, RIVERS AND GLTCIARS PUT TOGETHER. IF IT ONLY COVERED "LOW" MOUNTAINS LIKE MT. AL-JUDI, THERE STILL HAVE TO BE ROUGHLY DOUBLY AS MUCH WATER AS WHAT EXISTS TODAY. WHERE DID THAT MUCH WATER COME FROM AND WHERE DID IT GO?

    One point about Mt. Al-Judi: The reason for the somewhat differing claims for where it is situated, is that nobody really knows where it was. There are several traditions placing it different places. Today the most used claim is a 2089 m high mountain north of Silopi - a town in the southeastern Anatoly region in Turkey - a mountain now named Jabal Judi or Judi Dagh by Muslims and Gardu by Jews and Christians.

    ##072 11/44b: "The Ark rested on Mount Al-Judi (in present Syria* (According to Wikipedia it lays in Anatolia in Turkey)) - - -". This is a contradiction to the Bible, which says Mt. Ararat in present Turkey, but this does not matter much. What matters is that it is said to end on a mountain (11/44b) which is 2089 m high. This means that a local flood was impossible - with a local flood t least that deep, the water had streamed away faster than the Niagara to lower places without water. And as Syria (and also Turkey) is in the middle of Islamic area, nobody knows this better has the Muslims. All the same you meet "serious" claims for a regional flood - or hopeless stories from university level like the filling up of the Mediterranean Sea - which maximally could fill up to the normal sea level (and according to Islam (YA comment 1531) Noah lived somewhere in or near the Tigris Valley "800 to 900 miles (some 1300-1500 km*) from the Persian Gulf". When you read Islamic literature even of claimed high quality, you slowly - or not so slowly - become disillusioned when it comes to the reliability of the claimed top writers: It seems that the main thing is to make the Quran seem true, and then they adjust reality a little here and a little there. But like so often when one makes up "facts", facts have a tendency to live their own life - here you see "facts" which are wrong, there you see "facts" which contradicts each other, etc. And when you have met enough such al-Taqiyyas (lawful lies) and Kitmans (lawful half-truths), your belief in their reliability starts to corrode - this even more so as you know mostly it is information they either know are wrong (f.x. that the slow filling up of the Mediterranean Sea some million years before modern man existed could bring the Ark from the Tigris Valley and land it on a high mountain in Turkey) or information which is easy to check if they really do not know it - f.x.: "When did the formerly dry desert basin which became the Mediterranean Sea fill up?". Some 5 million years ago. You simply have to check all claims they make - too many of them are wrong.

    But what is the reliability of a religion which accepts the use of lies "if necessary", and which has to rely on lies to make their stories, claims and religious dogmas seem - not be, but seem - true? A religion which on top of all only is built on a book which itself proves it is not from a god, and a book told only by a single man of doubtful moral quality believing in the use of dishonesty, cheating, broken words, etc., a man liking power and riches for more power and women, and a man who on top of all this again never was able to prove a comma of his central claims.

    One point about Mt. Al-Judi: The reason for the somewhat differing claims for where it is situated, is that nobody really knows where it was. There are several traditions placing it different places. Today the most used claim is a 2089 m high mountain north of Silopi - a town in the southeastern Anatoly region in Turkey - a mountain now named Jabal Judi or Judi Dagh by Muslims and Gardu by Jews and Christians.

    073 11/45b: "And Noah called upon his Lord (here indicated to be Allah*), and said: '- - - Surely my son (the one claimed lost in the big flood*) is of my family!'". This definitely is not from the Bible - according to the Bible Noah lost no son in the flood. And as Noah according to the Bible (the Quran as normal has few facts, and does not mention the number of sons) only had 3 sons, the loss of one would be so great, that it should have been mentioned.

    ##074 11/46b: (Allah said): “O Noah! He (your son*) is not of thy family: for his conduct is unrighteous.” This is one of the inhuman points in the Quran and in Islam. If my - I who write just this - son had done something wrong, I might have scolded him and may be punished him - but he still would be my son.

    This claimed part of the story is not from the Bible.

    075 11/46c: (A11/65 – in 2008 edition A11/68): (Allah said): “O Noah! He (your son*) is not of thy family: for his conduct is unrighteous.” This is if the Arab words “innahu ‘amal ghayr Salih” is meant to relate to the unnamed son of Noah (according to the Bible he only had 3 – Shem, Ham and Japheth) (Zamakhshari). But Noah had just made a prayer to his god – Allah according to the Quran – for his son, and if the mentioned words are meant to relate to that prayer, the meaning changes to something like: “Verily, this prayer is unrighteous conduct of you” (Razi, Tabari). Clear and easy and not to misunderstand? And these variants of course also are in the Arab text, as the relevant word(s) there has/have more than one meaning.

    076 11/47b: Noah has just lost one of his 3 sons, but says: "O my Lord (here claimed to be Allah*)! I do seek refuge with Thee, lest I ask Thee for what I have no knowledge. And unless Thou forgive me (for praying for his son's life*) and have Mercy with me, I should indeed be lost!" Being humans, we refrain from any comments on this verse.

    According to the Bible Noah lost no son in the Big Flood (7/64c+d)

    As for forgiving from Allah: See 2/187d above.

    077 11/49a: "- - - stories from the Unseen - - -". All too many of the stories in the Quran are not from the unseen, but from apocryphal (made up) stories, folklore, legends, and fairy tales (f.x. the name Luqman - the title of surah 31 - is the name of a wise man from several old Arab fairy tales (a fact never mentioned by Muslims)), and then "adjusted" and sometimes - like the story of Noah - made more dramatic to fit Muhammad's new religion, where Muhammad with a straight face told is followers that this was the pure truth from his god. Also see 11/49d below. But would an omniscient god stoop to use such tales as basis for his religion? - tales which to a large degree even were not true?!! Who in reality made the Quran?

    078 11/84d: "- - - Shu'ayb - - -". To place the special Arab claimed prophets chronologically, it seems that Islam claims the succession was this (YA1064): Noah (not Arab prophet, though*), Hud, Salih, Abraham (not Arab), (Lot/Lut (not Arab), and Shu'ayb. Shu'ayb is said to be 4 generations after Lot, though we do not find this specified in the Quran, which in case means also he was before Moses around 1375 - 1335 BC. Lot of course was a contemporary of Abraham - his nephew. Abraham lived - if he is not fiction - ca. 1800-2000 BC according to science, which means that Shu'ayb (if not fiction) lived about one century later or a bit more, BC. This makes impossible the Muslim claim that Shu’ayb was identical to the father-in-law of Moses, Jethro. Science tells that if the Exodus ever took place, it happened ca. 1235 BC, and if the Bible is correct Moses then was 80 years, which means he lived from ca.1315 BC to ca. 1195 BC (he became 120 years according to the Bible). There in case are some 300 - 500 years between Shu'ayb and Moses (and Jethro).

    1. Adam (and Eve) - unclear when.
    2. Noah - unclear when, likely 3ooo - 4ooo BC. (Some 3200 BC?)
    3. Hud - unknown when, but the first of the 3 claimed Arab prophets of the old. Long before Moses.
    4. Salih - unknown when. Well before Moses.
    5. Abraham and Lot - around 2ooo - 1800 BC according to science.

    6. Shu'ayb - 4 generations (some 120 years) after Lot = roughly around 1700 BC. The last one of the 3 claimed Arab prophets of the old.
    7. Moses - Exodus according to science was around 1235 BC, which means he was in Midian ca. 1275 to 1235 BC. If he was 80 when Exodus started and lived 40 years more like the Bible says, he lived from ca. 1315 BC to ca. 1195 BC.

     

    079 11/89a: "- - - the people of Noah or of Hud or of Salih - - - nor of Lut (Lot*) - - -". According to the Quran all these people were killed by Allah because of sins. The Bible says the same for the people of Noah and of Lot - though it makes it clear that as for Lot they were not really his people - but by Yahweh, not by Allah.

    080 14/9b: "- - - 'Ad, and Thamud - - -". 2 tribes who according to old Arab folklore lived in Arabia in really old times, and whom you meet several times in the Quran. According to Islam they lived around and a little later than the times of Abraham but before Moses. Abraham lived - if he is not fiction - around 1800-2000 BC according to science and Moses around 1300 BC. There exists no real information about them, except maybe one or two small mentionings. The tales in the Quran are from Arab folklore, adjusted to fit Islam by Allah or by someone else. For the ones who do not know the Bible well - we f.x. know that quite a few Hindus read this, as there are problems with Islam in India - we mention that Noah is one of the very early persons in OT - the one who with his family survived the Big Flood (7/64c+d).

    081 14/9d: "To them (Noah, 'Ad, Thamud, etc.*) came messengers - - -". Wrong at least as far as Noah goes. The Quran clearly indicate and the Bible directly says (1. Mos. 7/13) that the god contacted Noah directly.

    082 14/37ba "- - - the Sacred House - - -". This refers to the Kabah Mosque in Mecca. To take its history according to Islam:

    It was originally built by Adam. Now, science and for that kind religion, believe that if Eden ever existed, it was in the wetlands of what is now South Iraq. All the same Adam went all the way from his home in or outside Eden, to this dry desert valley some months grueling march to the west - some 800 miles/1300 km of mostly forbidding and grueling hot Arab Desert - and built a big mosque there - what for we have never heard any Muslim explain.

    But during the Big Flood (7/64c+d) and during the millennia the mosque was destroyed. Some say that Noah repaired it, but that time passed and wore it down. When Ishmael grew old enough to be a helper - it is not said how old - Abraham, therefore, rebuilt the big mosque. No Muslim have ever explained us why he built it so big for just his own after all small family, or why he built it a thousand miles from where he lived - and thus a place where he and his family never could use it, and in a place where still nearly no-one lived.

    We also points to the fact that neither Adam, nor Noah, nor Abraham had the camel. How did they then travel those long and many miles through the horrible Arabian Desert? No Muslim have ever been able to explain us this - but then most Muslims are not aware of the problem, as "the Religion of the Truth" never tells its followers that Abraham did not have camels. Also: From where did those 3 learn the technology to build big stone constructions? F.x. the largest "buildings" Abraham according to the Bible made, were a few altars. And what about the time used? - to build one of the big stone churches in Europe easily took 20-30 years for highly qualified and sizeable work force. The two amateur stonemasons Abraham and Ishmael on the other hand seems to have built the Kabah in some weeks during one or a few of Abraham's claimed visits to see his son in that desert valley.

    But new millennia took its toll. Some years before Muhammad became a Muslim, the Kabah was rebuilt. But the now rich merchant city could not afford to use the foundations of Abraham - that big he had built his far of and far into the wilderness mosque for his family. The rich Mecca had to build smaller.

    There are times one starts wonder what brainwashing - included religious such - does to a man's brain and his ability to use his brain.

    The very plain story is that neither Adam, nor Noah, nor Abraham, nor any other Biblical person ever was in the Mecca Valley, not to mentioned built anything on a mosque there. But it is good propaganda as long as anyone believes it. Also see 2/127a above.

    ################Added 5. Feb. 2015:

    We today discovered that there has been archeological work done in Mecca and the Mecca valley. (By Muslims as only Muslims are permitted there.) The conclusion: "No traces found from buildings earlier than the 4. century AD" (= at least 2100 years after Abraham). "The first temple/mosque likely built in the 5. century AD" (= at least 2200 years after Abraham). No comments necessary.

    083 17/3a: "Ye that are sprung from those We (Allah*) carried (in the Ark) - - -". According to the Bible the involved god was Yahweh, not Allah.

    084 17/3e: "Verily he (Noah*) was a devotee most grateful". He had to be - he lost one of his 3 sons and did not blame Allah. (Not so in the Bible - contradiction. And as it is not from the Bible, and as the Quran is not from a god - too much is wrong - from where did Muhammad get this piece of information?)

    But the Quran's stories about Noah definitely are no proved verity/truth.

    085 17/3f: "Verily he (Noah*) was a devotee most grateful". Yes, but to Yahweh, not to Allah, according to the Bible.

    086 17/17a: “How many generations have We (Allah*) destroyed after Noah?” Allah has killed so many generations that he is not sure of the number. And it is a question of killing (destroying), not of natural death. Yahweh who just made room for Israel/the Jews to let them have their own small country + helped them a little now and then, hardly is even in the same killing league as Allah. And also he is outdated, as the new covenant is peaceful, whereas Allah is still going strong in the war and killing business - Yahweh not much of a competitor for Allah in the killing fields.

    087 21/68-69: This is in short the story of Nimrod's Fire (see 21/69b below). It is - like so much in the Quran pretending to be old Jewish history - not from the Bible. The story also is impossible, as Nimrod lived centuries or much more before Abraham - if he ever lived. (Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah and lived(?) something like 1ooo or more years before Abraham according to science). Muhammad had little knowledge about the Bible, but any god had known this.

    088 21/69b: “We (Allah*) said, ‘O fire! Be thou cool, and (a means of) safety for Abraham”. This episode is normally referred to as "Nimrod's (or Nimrud's) Fire". But as Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah and as he lived - if he ever lived - some 1ooo years or more before Abraham, this is an impossibility. Then Muslims - not for the first or only time - say: "It was another with the same name", in this case an unknown king. We have found no basis for this claim, and Islam will have to produce proofs. This even more so as this is a typical Muslim way of explaining away problems - and as normal without any proofs.

    089 21/76b: “We (Allah*) listened to his (Noah’s*) (prayer) and delivered him and his family from great distress (= Allah saved Noah’s family from the flood*)”. But:

    1. 11/43: “- - - and the son (of Noah*) was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.” Noah just had 3 sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth – 1. Mos. 7/13, and not contradicted by the Quran – and he lost one of them. In addition it is clear from another place in the Quran that also his wife ended in Hell. That is not “saved Noah’s family”. (In the Bible Noah lost no son and his wife was not condemned to Hell.)

     

    2 solid contradictions compared to the Bible. Besides: As the Quran is not from a god with all its mistakes, etc., the only source for information about Noah is the Bible. From where then did Muhammad get his claimed information not in the Bible? Similar claim in 37/76.

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c - a strong one - you get something thought-provoking. (And relevant here: Muslims often are taught that a question or problem can have 2 or more true and correct solutions - Islam is forced to teach this, because if not, many of the mistakes and contradictions in the Quran become too obvious. But this ONLY is true if parallel true solutions are possible. In cases where 2 or more possible solutions are mutually excluding each other, maximum 1 of the mutually excluding ones can be true. It should be a bit thought provoking for Muslims, that just this "small" difference in theoretical thinking and teaching, was one of the reasons (there were several of course) for why Europe and the West exploded into the Technical Revolution, while the Muslim area stagnated). Two star examples are: 1) Full predestination is not possible even for an omnipotent god to combine with even the smallest piece of free will for man - the two are mutually excluding. The same for full and unchangeable predestination long time before, combined with any claimed effect of prayers - the two are mutually excluding each other.)

    090 22/42d: "- - - the People of Noah, The 'Ad and Thamud - - -". Time anomalies.

    091 23/23c: "Ye (Noah's people*) have no other god than Him (Allah*)". For one thing the Bible here will claim that Noah's god was Yahweh, and for another see 6/106b above.

    092 23/23-28: Noah is from the Bible, but a lot of the details in the Quean about his story are not. From where did Muhammad get these details? - not from a god, as no god made a book with so many mistakes like the Quran, and the only other source about Noah is the Bible - perhaps except legends and fairy tales.

    093 23/24d: "- - - his (Noah's*) wish is to assert his superiority over you (people*) - - -". This is a very common wish from founders of new sects and religions - f.x. Muhammad was in a similar situation, and he made himself the superior when he gained power, (though just in this case and in some other cases in the Quran from before Muhammad thought he would ever gain much power, it is likely meant as irony: "Hear how stupid their accusations are towards one who just want to teach religion" - and to put himself in line with most of the old Jewish prophets, who most of them had no political or military power. It is very typical for Muhammad to make prophets and other "positive" figures be a copy of his own situation at the time the different verses were published, and thus "show" his followers that his situation was typical for prophets (and thus that Muhammad was a typical prophet).

    094 23/24g: “- - - if Allah had wished - - - He could have sent down angels (as prophets*) - - -”. This is exactly one of the requests Muhammad got from his skeptics - he is using Noah to "show" that earlier Jewish prophets had no angels sent down, too, and thus that this is normal for prophets - and that he himself thus is a normal prophet. Muhammad uses this tactic many times in the Quran.

    095 23/25a: "And some said): 'He (Noah') is only a man possessed - - -". See 23/24b above.

    096 23/25b: "He (Noah*) is only a man possessed - - -". Muhammad was accused of this, and then it was a psychologically good idea to "show" his followers that this was normal for prophets. But in a way the ones suspecting Muhammad to lack something mentally may be they were right - according to medical science the illness Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (TLE) would explain his claimed experiences very well.

    097 23/26b: "- - - they (non-Muslims*) accuse me (Noah*) of falsehood!". Muhammad was accused of this, and then it was a psychologically good idea to "show" his followers that this was normal for prophets. But at least when it comes to Muhammad, his critics may have been right: All the mistaken facts, etc. proves that something was - and is - wrong.

    098 23/27a: "So We (Allah*) inspired him (Noah*) - - -". There nowhere in the Bible is told that the prophets or others got information or orders from the god by inspiration. But as this was the way Muhammad claimed he got most of his verses, it was good psychology to claim that also the old prophets got their orders from the god this way = Muhammad is a normal prophet. You meet this many places in the Quran.

    099 23/27d: "- - - and the fountains of the earth gush forth (and make the Big Flood - 7/64c+d*) - - -". The Quran tells (11/44) that the Ark ended on Mount Al-Judi in Syria (According to Wikipedia it lies in Anatolia in Turkey - Mt. Ararat lies there, and is the mountain mentioned in the Bible). This mountain is 2089 m high. There is no way water in Turkey or Syria could be that high unless the flood was universal - it had streamed away to not flooded places in case (a fact Islam knows very well, and all the same tries to explain that the flood only was regional - a clear al-Taqiyya (lawful lie)). But there is no way fountains of the Earth could have gushed forth that much water - not even 10% of it - not even if it was assisted by heavy rain (and there are limits to how much rain the atmosphere can contain and release). And absolutely not without leaving any traces from collapsed enormous chambers or something where the Water had been. Something is wrong here.

    The Quran also does neither explain from where all the water came, nor to where it drained. To cover Mt. al-Judi one needed roughly as much extra water as there today are in all oceans, etc. on Earth. To cover the highest mountains one needed roughly 4 times more water than exists on Earth today. There is nowhere that much water could come from or return to, and no mechanism which can explain what happened.

    One point about Mt. Al-Judi: The reason for the somewhat differing claims for where it is situated, is that nobody really knows where it was. There are several traditions placing it different places. Today the most used claim is a 2089 m high mountain north of Silopi - a town in the southeastern Anatoly region in Turkey - a mountain now named Jabal Judi or Judi Dagh by Muslims and Gardu by Jews and Christians.

    *100 23/27e: (Said by Allah to Noah*)”- - - take thou aboard pairs of every species, male and female - - -”. Impossible. There simply are too many animals + necessary food for any ark or boat or ship to take two of each. Even a modern super tanker fixed up for such a job, had been far too small - and the ark was a wooden boat. See 11/40. And who did the feeding, watering and cleaning for all these animals? And who gathered them and gathered the food for all of them - and how was the food stored so as not to spoil?

    Muslims try to tell that most likely Allah meant only the domesticated animals. But that is not what the Quran says. And the Quran is to be understood literally, if nothing else is said - see 3/7. Besides: Islam tells the Ark stranded on a 2089 m high mountain in Anatolia in Turkey (Mt. Al-Jedi), and in that case there had to be so much water on Earth that all animals had drowned if they were not in the ark - and this even more so if the water covered all mountains when the flood was at its maximum.

    101 23/28a: "Praise be to Allah - - -". The Bible disagrees here, and wants it to be Yahweh. More essential: Neither science nor Islam has ever found any trace about Allah older than 610 AD. Noah - if he ever existed - may have lived 3ooo-5ooo BC (some 3200 BC?). (You will find exact years some places - do not believe the rest of what those sources tell you, too. Exact years for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or anything older in the religions, are bluffs).

    102 23/41a: “And the Blast overtook them (people some generations after Noah?*) with justice (and killed them*), and we made them as rubbish of dead leafs - - -”. Excellent literature! - either the Quran without remark or explanation has changed from talking about Noah, or Muhammad has mixed up his stories; there was no blast - a storm but no blast - during the Big Flood (7/64c+d), neither in the Bible no in the Quran. Most likely here he has switched from one story to another in the middle of the tales. The ones claiming that the Quran is excellent literature, either do not know the Quran, or they know nothing about literature.

    PS: Yahweh caused little killing between Noah and Abraham, but Allah seems to have been busy most of the time.

    169 25/37b: “And the people of Noah - - - We (Allah*) drowned them - - -”. See 25/36a and 25/36b above.

    103 26/106b: "(Noah said*) Will ye (other people*) not fear (Allah)". Islam claims Allah has been the central and only real god since man/Homo Sapiens started. Science and Islam both have long since proved this wrong, as neither science nor Islam has found one single trace of clear monotheism before the Jews (we know the word is younger, but like many others we use it because it is convenient), and no trace of any Islam or Allah (in Muhammad's meaning of that name) or Quran before 610 AD (when Muhammad started his preaching).

    104 26/107: "I (Noah*) am to you (people*) a messenger worthy all trust". This was more or less what Muhammad claimed about himself, and then it was good psychology that former prophets said the same - this made Muhammad's words more likely. You many places in the Quran find this kind of psychology used.

    105 26/108: "(Noah said*) So fear Allah, and obey me". This was one of Muhammad's mantras, and then it was psychologically wise to make it "clear" that this was normal for prophets to say - though you do not find it in the Bible concerning Noah, and also not concerning many Biblical known, real prophets". A very nice slogan for any dictator. Nothing about "obey me" is said in the Bible.

    106 26/109a: "No reward do I (Noah*) ask of you (people*) for it (my preaching*) - - -". Another - and wrong - of Muhammad's mantras - see 26/108 just above. Muhammad also demanded much from his followers -obedience, respect, women, riches for bribes and women, and total power.

    ###107 26/113a: "Their (non-Muslims'*) account is only with my (Noah's*) Lord (Allah*) - - -". = It is for Allah only to punish the "unbelievers". Similar to Muhammad's early words - see 26/107 and 26/108 above. But guess if Muhammad changed his mind when he gained raw power!

    ###108 26/113b: (A26/50): "Noah's answer embodies a cardinal principle of Quranic ethics and, hence, of Islamic law: No human being has the right to sit in judgment on another person's faith and hidden motifs - - -". ########But this is just what Muslims too often have been and are doing the moment it is clear you are a non-Muslim, not to mention if you are a Muslim wanting to leave the religion.

    109 26/114b: "- - - those who believe". Muslims - believe in Muslims at the time of Noah if you are able to.

    ####110 26/115b: "I (Noah/Muhammad*) am sent only to warn in public". Parallel to Muhammad - these were his words this early. (Many of the stories are parallels to Muhammad's at the time it was told - legitimating that his situation was normal for prophets, and thus that he was a normal prophet.) Reality changed later when he became powerful - then force and terror entered the picture".

    111 26/116c: "- - - thou (Noah*) shalt be stoned - - -". There is no mentioning of punishment by stoning in the Bible, until in much later times. Also Noah was never threatened with stoning in the Bible.

    112 26/118a: "- - - those of the Believers (Muslims*) who are with me (Noah)". According to the Quran Noah and his family were good Muslims. No comment - and none necessary (except that Islam here like many other places needs strong proofs).

    113 26/118b: "- - - those of the Believers (Muslims*) who are with me (Noah)". In the Bible there only was Noah's family - 8 persons (if his sons had 1 wife each - 1. Mos. 7/7). In the Quran it seems he had some other followers in addition - but on the other hand not one of his (according to the Bible) only 3 sons.

    114 26/121c: "- - - but most of them (people - and now we are back to Muhammad's time just here*) do not believe". Not strange, at least for the ones who already then saw that something was seriously wrong - f.x. was Noah’s story told by Muhammad quite different from what really was written in the old scriptures.

    115 26/142c: "Will ye (the Thamud people*) not fear (Allah)?". The claimed 3 Arab prophets mentioned in the Quran (Hud, Salih, and Shu'ayb) all are said to have operated in the time between Noah and Moses. Noah - if he ever lived - is likely to have lived several thousand years ago (5-6ooo? - perhaps around 3200 BC?), and Moses around 1200-1300 BC. And the fact that the last one of the 3 - Shu'ayb - is indicated to be 4. generation after Lot (some 2ooo- 1800 BC), indicates that he lived around 1700 BC. If you are able to believe in Muslims at that time, you are free to do so, but neither science nor Islam has found any traces of that religion anywhere earlier than 610 AD when Muhammad started his preaching.

    116 26/176b: “- - - the Companions (or People*) of the Wood - - -“. No matter who they were, if they ever lived, they lived sometime between Noah and Moses, and thus they were a time anomaly for everyone living earlier who could read about them in copies their claimed prophets had got of the timeless "Mother Book" in Heaven - like Muhammad got a copy which he named the Quran.

    "The people of the Wood" is one more expression Islam does not know what means, but have to guess for what people is meant. Unclear text simply.

    117 27/65a: "Say: None in the heavens (plural and wrong*) or on earth, except Allah, knows what is hidden - - -". This is one of the many things which are easy to say, but which is logically invalid as indication or proof for Allah, unless Allah proves he, and he alone, is able to do this. Also see 2/233h above.

    ######3But it is one more proof for that Muhammad did not know what is hidden = he was unable to make prophesies.

    ###118 28/4e: Time anomaly: If - like Muslims often claim - the Quran was written before man was created or even has existed since eternity, and everything is predestined - this cannot have happened if man has free will - if man has free will, the laws of chaos had disrupted things long time ago. If there is free will - even partly - any predestination which the god does not carefully follow up and adjust the course of, will be spoiled by the laws of chaos. If there is any marked degree of predestination, man has no free will. And if man has free will, predestination, except in special cases, is impossible. The claim that general predestination is possible to combine with even a little free will for man, simply is one of the mistakes in the Quran - it is even theoretically impossible (a fact Muslims never can afford to admit, because that means something is seriously wrong with the religion, and it is better to believe in a religion and refuse to see, than to meet the alternative: That the never in any way proved religion is a made up one.) Thus if there exists free will for man, full clairvoyance is impossible even for a god = things which happened after the claimed "Mother of the Book" (of which all prophets during all times received an exact copy = a parallel to the Quran - according to Muhammad) was written, then are time anomalies, not to mention what kind of anomalies it would be to the claimed prophets living before things happened). Anomalies in this case is another word for error - especially if the Quran in reality was made at the time of Muhammad.

    Verse 28/4 is a good sample of things difficult - for f.x. Abraham or Noah - to fully understand from their (claimed by Islam) copies of "the Mother of the Book" (= "the Mother of the Quran"). Other samples are the handling of Muhammad's family affairs in "the Mother of the Book" and consequently in its copies to all the claimed prophets/messengers.

    There are very many time anomalies in the Quran - we only point the most obvious ones of them. Also see heading over the surahs. But as the Quran claims full predestination, predestination gives all these time anomalies. Yes, even a miniscule piece of free will for man, will destroy full predestination - the laws of chaos guarantees that.

    The only way to explain the time anomalies in the Quran - as full clairvoyance is impossible also for gods if man has even a little bit free will - is that the Quran originally is written after everything had happened. And then they very clearly are errors in any book claiming to be VERY old.

    119 29/14a: "We (Allah*) (once) sent Noah - - -". According to the Bible, the god of Noah was Yahweh. We may add that the story in the Quran about Noah, roughly is similar to the one in the Bible. But many details are different or added. As the Quran with all its errors and weaknesses is from no god, so that he cannot have got those details that way (in spite of strong claims), it is an open question from where Muhammad got them.

    120 29/14c: "- - - they (the people of Noah*) (persisted in) sin". How could this be reliably written into the claimed "Mother Book" long time before it happened, unless predestination is 100%? Left alone the laws of chaos would mean changes in the reality after short time with even only 1% free will for man or less.

    121 29/15b: "But We (Allah*) saved him (Noah*) and the Companions of the Ark - - -". Well, according to the Quran Noah lost one of his sons. (Not so in the Bible, where all his 3 sons were saved - 1. Mos. 7/13.) But as he was not on board the Ark, formally the text in the Quran is not wrong.

    122 29/16d: "- - - if ye (some non-Muslims*) understand!". The problem is that if people really have knowledge and understanding, they also understand that many things are wrong in the Quran, and thus that there is no god behind that book - or in this case a similar one, as this is from the time of Noah (a prophet of Islam according to the Quran - with all its errors).

    123 29/17b: "The things that ye (Abram/Abraham's people*) worship besides Allah have no power - - -". It is not unlikely that Noah's people had more than one god - actually it is quite likely. But in the Bible there is mentioned no kind of religious strife, neither between Abram/Abraham and his people (1. Mos. 11/27-31), nor between Abram/Abraham and his father (1. Mos. 11/27-32 and 12/1-5).

    124 29/17d: "- - - seek ye (Noah's people*) sustenance from Allah - - -". It is Allah who gives you all things, according to the Quran. Not dissimilar to 11/7a above.

    125 29/18a: "And if ye (Noah's people*) reject (the Message (Islam*)) - - -". Like all the other heroes in the Quran, Noah was a good Muslim. Believe it if you want.

    126 29/18b: "And if ye (Noah's people*) reject (the Message (Islam*), so did generations before you - - -". Like so often in the Quran a parallel to Muhammad's situation at the time when the verses emerged, and a clear message to his followers: This situation is normal for prophets and thus Muhammad is a normal prophet.

    But Muhammad was no real prophet. The definition of a prophet is a person who:

    1. Have the gift of and close enough connection to a god for making prophesies.
    2. Makes prophesies that always or at least mostly come true.
    3. Makes so frequent and/or essential prophesies, that it is a clear part of his mission.

     

    A few things Muhammad said, came true – like it has to do for a person saying many things through many years – and most of what he said which did not come true, was forgotten (also this is what normally happens if it is nothing spectacular). But he did not see the future correctly often - actually he statistically and according to the laws of probability should have "hit the mark" far more often by sheer chance than he did - there just are a few cases where Muslims will claim he foretold something correctly, and few if any of them are "perfect hits". But then the Quran makes it pretty clear that even though he was intelligent, he had little fantasy and that he also was nearly unable to make innovative thinking (nearly all his tales and his ideas in reality were "borrowed" ones - though often twisted to fit his new religion).

    The main things here are that Muhammad never indicated that anything of what he said was meant as prophesies, that he never indicated, not to mention claimed, that he had the gift of prophesying, that it nowhere is documented that all/most of what he said about the future came true (point 2 above), and finally that both he and Islam said and says that there were no miracles connected to Muhammad “except the Quran”; prophesying is a kind of miracle -seeing what has not yet happened). (This fact that Islam admits there were no miracle connected to Muhammad also is a solid proof for that all the miracles connected to Muhammad mentioned in the Hadiths, are made up stories). Also see 30/40a and 30/46a, and we also should add that his favorite wife (and infamous child wife) Aisha according to Hadiths (f. x. Al-Bukhari) states that anyone saying Muhammad could foresee things, were wrong.

    Verse 7/188b also is very relevant here: "If I (Muhammad*) had knowledge of the Unseen (= what is hidden and what has not happened yet*), I should have - - -". IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT MUHAMMAD DID NOT HAVE THE PROPHETS' ABILITY TO SEE "THE UNSEEN" - he was no real prophet.

    Also relevant here is that the original title of the Jewish prophets was not "prophet" but "seer" - one who saw at least parts of the unseen. (F. x. 1. Sam. 9/9, 1. Chr. 26/28, 1.Chr.29/29, Amos 7/12, Mic. 3/7 - some places the two titles even are used side by side). Muhammad so definitely was no seer - prophet - even according to his own words; he had no "knowledge of the unseen".

    Many liked the title prophet, and there have been made other definitions for the name - the most common of these are "one who brings messages from a god", or "one who represents a god", or "one who acts/talks on behalf of a god". But the fact remains: Without being able to prophesy, he or she is no real prophet. A messenger for someone or something - ok. An apostle - ok. But not a real prophet.

    ###And this is a fact no Muslim will admit: Muhammad in reality simply was no real prophet or seer. Perhaps a messenger for someone or something or for himself – or perhaps an apostle – but not a real prophet. He only “borrowed” that impressive and imposing title. It is up to anyone to guess why.

    Also see 30/40 and 30/46below.

    127 33/7d: "- - - Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus - - -". 4 historical covenants - and anomalies. It also is not correct of Muhammad to compare himself to those 4, as their teachings are so different from Muhammad's, that he clearly does not belong in that line of prophets/messengers or even religion - this in spite of Muhammad's claim (even if things are claimed, they are not necessarily true).

    *128 36/41b: “And a Sign for them (humans*) is that We (Allah*) bore their race (through the Flood) in the loaded Ark - - -”. No wooden boat could possibly carry the load the Quran says: Noah + his people + 2 of every animal + food and fodder for a long time (the Quran says nothing about how long, the Bible tells that the rain started 7. Feb. one year (1. Mos. 7/11). 1. Jan. next year the water had drained away (1. Mos. 8/13). And finally 27. Feb. that year the earth was so dry that Noah and his animals got out from the ark (1. Mos. 8/14-15). This means 1 year and 20 days - 385 days - in the ark.) Even Muslims today see that this is very wrong, and try to explain it away by saying that only domesticated animals was meant, but that is not what the Quran tells. Also: Islam tells that the ark stranded on a mountain in Anatolia in Turkey - the 2089 m high Mt. Al-Jedi - (not Ararat in Turkey), but if water was that high, where did the animals not represented in the ark survive? - and survive for that long (the Quran as mentioned does not specify the time, but the Bible says more than one year)?

    129 37/75b: "- - - Noah cried to Us (Allah*) - - -". The Bible claims he spoke to Yahweh - quite another god in spite of the Quran's never proved claims.

    130 37/76a: “And We (Allah*) delivered him (Noah*) and his people from the Great Calamity”. Wrong – according to the Quran one of his (according to the Bible) only 3 sons drowned (not so in the Bible). Similar claim in 21/76.

    131 37/76b: “And We (Allah*) delivered him (Noah*) and his people from the Great Calamity”. According to the Bible, the involved god was Yahweh, not Allah.

    132 37/81: "For he (Noah*) was one of Our (Allah's*) believing Servants". One more of the claims in the Quran that old Jews and their forefathers believed in Allah, but according to the Bible the correct is Yahweh. And we repeat that in spite of Islam's frequent claims about falsifications in the Bible, all serious, relevant science says it is not true - there may be mistakes, but not falsifications. Islam has proved even stronger that there is no falsification, by not finding one relevant old manuscript which is proved falsified (they had not hidden such a discovery).

    133 37/82: "The rest (of people*) We (Allah*) overwhelmed in the Flood". According to the Bible it was Yahweh who did this, not Allah.

    134 37/83b: "- - - among those who followed in his (Noah's*) Way was Abraham". = Like Noah Abraham was a good Muslim, according to this - and many other - verse in the Quran. Like normal Muhammad had not one single proof, but of course you are free to believe it.

    135 38/12-13: "- - - Noah - - - 'Ad - - - Pharaoh - - - the Lord of the Stakes - - - Thamud - - - - Lot - - - the People of the Wood - - - such was the Confederates". Islam will have a job proving that these were confederates, as there are perhaps 3ooo years or more between the oldest and the youngest - and spread over a wide geographical area. Especially the time of when the different ones existed, Muhammad seems to have had vague ideas about, and because of that made some funny errors in the Quran.

    136 40/31b: "- - - 'Ad - - - Thamud - - -". 2 tribes from Arab folklore. They may or may not have existed, but even if they should have existed, Muhammad had no sources of information about them except folklore (there is a chance they are mentioned in old Greek scriptures, but those were not translated to Arab at the time of Muhammad), as the Quran is not from a god - except folk tales and fairy tales. Noah is from the Bible, but not 'Ad and Thamud. In any case both are time anomalies.

    137 42/13b: “The same religion has He (Allah*) established - - - (as that of Noah*)”. That Noah was a good Muslim is one of the nearly legion numbers of never proved claims in the Quran - nothing of any essence in the book is proved, only claims and as loose words, often unlikely ones, often highly unlikely ones, sometimes clearly wrong ones (may be 3ooo errors of different kinds in the book - ca. one error for every second verse - must be close to world record for a claimed holy book).

    138 42/13c: “The same religion has He (Allah*) established - - - (as that of Noah*)”. Contradicted by the Bible, which says Noah's god was Yahweh, and Yahweh's religion is a lot different from Allah's". But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    139 50/14a: "- - - each one (of them) (the tribes mentioned in 50/12-14*) rejected the Messengers - - -". Except for Noah, Pharaoh and Lot, none of these are mentioned in the Bible - and like so often their stories are parallels to the one of Muhammad at the time when the stories were told or before. This "told" his followers that Muhammad's problems were normal for prophets, and thus that Muhammad was an ordinary - thought extraordinary - prophet. Nice for his followers to "know" and good claims (true or not true) for Muhammad.

    140 51/46a: "So (Signs*) were the People of Noah - - -". In case they were a sign, according to the Bible they were a sign for Yahweh - a god in many ways different to Allah.

    141 53/52a: "And - - - (Allah destroyed*) the people of Noah - - -". Contradicted by the Bible which says this was done by Yahweh (Muhammad claimed and Islam claims that this just was 2 names for the same god, but their teachings and the basic ideas behind the religions are too different for that to be possible.) But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    142 54/9b: "- - - the People of Noah - - - said, 'Here is one - - -'". See 54/2c above.

    143 54/9c: "- - - they (the people of Noah*) rejected Our (Allah's*) servant - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which says Noah was the follower of Yahweh, not of Allah (though Muhammad wrongly claimed the two were the same god - as normal for Muhammad without the slightest proof). Also see 13/1g and 67/9c - 2 strong ones. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    144 54/9e: "And he (Noah*) was driven out". Noah was not driven out according to the Bible - he just prepared for the Big Flood (7/64c+d) and was looked upon as strange.

    145 54/12b: "And We (Allah*) caused the earth to gush (water for the Big Flood - 7/64/c+d*) forth with springs - - -". It is physically impossible for Earth to gush forth that much water without leaving huge caverns where the water came from - far too huge not to collapse afterwards. There after all was so much water, that the Ark which likely started in what is now south Iraq, stranded on the 2089 m high Mt. al-Judi (11/44b) in Syria (not Ararat in Turkey like said in the Bible) according to the Quran (According to Wikipedia Mt. al-Judi lies in Anatolia in Turkey). Science has found no such collapsed caverns.

    One point about Mt. Al-Judi: The reason for the somewhat differing claims for where it is situated, is that nobody really knows where it was. There are several traditions placing it different places. Today the most used claim is a 2089 m high mountain north of Silopi - a town in the southeastern Anatoly region in Turkey - a mountain now named Jabal Judi or Judi Dagh by Muslims and Gardu by Jews and Christians.

    146 54/13a: "And We (Allah*) bore him (Noah*) - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which says the involved god was Yahweh, not Allah. Also see 13/1g and 67/9c - 2 strong ones. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    147 54/14a: "- - - under Our (Allah's*) eyes - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which says the involved god (Noah's) was Yahweh, not Allah. Also see 13/1g and 67/9c - 2 strong ones. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    148 54/14b: "- - - one (Noah*) who had been rejected (with scorn) - - -". One more of the many parallels to the life of Muhammad (it is likely this was in 614 AD, and Muhammad was scorned and laughed at) - parallels "telling" his followers and others that his problems were normal for prophets, and thus that Muhammad was a normal - though top - prophet. There are many such claimed parallels to Muhammad's life in the Quran - most of the tales about formed real or claimed prophets in the Quran have such parallels. Convenient for Muhammad who thus got good explanations, that the claimed and timeless "Mother Book", which the Quran is claimed to be an exact copy of, contained so many such parallels.

    149 57/26a: "We (Allah*) sent Noah and Abraham - - -". According to the Bible their god was Yahweh, not Allah - a very different god, especially like you meet him in NT and the new covenant (Luke 22/20) never mentioned by Islam.

    150 66/10c: "- - - the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut (Lot*) - - - were false to their (husbands) - - -". This contradicts the Bible. There is mentioned nothing like this about the wife of Noah, and as for the death of the wife of Lot it had nothing to do with being false to her husband - she just turned to look at what happened, something the angels had warned against, but it is not indicated it was because of disobedience (when dramatic things happen, it is normal and human to react to them). Simply contradicted by the Bible by not mentioning anything like the Quran claims. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    151 69/11b: "- - - (Noah's Flood) - - -". A time anomaly.

    152 71/1a: "We (Allah*) sent Noah - - -". Contradicted by the Bible: According to the Bible this was done by Yahweh, not by Allah. Also see 67/9c above - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    153 71/1-20: Like Muhammad at this time (621 - 622 AD), Noah (and other claimed prophets Muhammad told about) had limited success - just like Muhammad. "Ergo" Muhammad was a normal prophet with normal problems. True? More or less all claimed and real prophets in the Quran were parallels to Muhammad at the time when the different surahs were told - just read the Quran with open eyes, and you will see this. We may add that even though the story roughly follows the Bible, the details are very different. As they are not from the Bible and not from a god - no book with so much wrong like the Quran is from any god - where did Muhammad get them from?

    154 71/2a: "O my (Noah's*) People!" I am to you a Warner, clear and open - - -". Exactly Muhammad's own words. See 71/1-20 just above.

    155 71/3a: "- - - worship Allah - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which says the god of Noah was Yahweh, not Allah.

    156 71/3b: "- - - fear Him (Allah*) and obey me (Noah*) - - -". This was one of Muhammad's demands, and then it was good psychology that other claimed prophets said the same - in the Quran even Jesus said this according to Muhammad, even though he normally just said "follow me", not "obey me" - something very different - according to NT. One more indication for that those two were not in the same religion. Also see 71/1-20 above.

    157 71/7b: "- - - they (opponents of Noah*) have (only) thrust their fingers into their ears, covered themselves with their garments, grown obstinate, and given themselves up to arrogance". How could this reliably be written in the claimed "Mother Book" (of which the Quran is a copy according to Muhammad) billions of years before it was said or happened? One more of the many texts or quotes in the Quran which could not have been reliably written into the claimed "Mother Book" (13/39b, 43/4b+c, 85/21-22) in Heaven (of which the Quran is claimed to be a copy) eons ago, unless predestination was and is 100% like the Quran claims many places (if you look, you will find more cases than we mention - we only mention some of the obvious ones). If man has free will - even partly only (an expression some Muslims use to flee from the problem full predestination contra free will for man (and also contra that there is no meaning in praying to Allah for help, if everything already is predestined in accordance with a plan "nobody and nothing can change" - a problem which Muslims seldom mention), and an expression no Muslim we have met has ever defined) - and can change his mind, full and reliable clairvoyance about the future, not to mention the distant future, is impossible even for a god, as the man always could/can change his mind or his words once more, in spite of Islam's claims. There are at least 5 reasons - at least 3 of them unavoidable - for this:

    1. When something is changed, automatically the future is changed.
    2. The laws of chaos will be at work and change things, if even a tiny part is made different. And multiply even a tiny change with some billion people through the centuries, and many and also big things will be changed.
    3. The displacement of a happening - f.x. the death of a warrior in battle - of only one yard or one minute may or even will change the future forever (that yard or minute f.x. may mean that the warrior killed - or not killed - an opponent). The laws of chaos and the "Butterfly Effect" and the "Domino Effect" kick in.

    4. The so-called "Butterfly Effect"; "a butterfly flapping its wing in Brazil may cause a storm in China later on" or "a small bump may overturn a big load".
    5. The so-called "Domino Effect": Any change will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change - - - and so on forever. Also each cause may cause one or more or many changes. And: The Butterfly Effect only may happen, whereas the Domino Effect is unavoidable and inexorable - a main reason why if you in a battle is killed 5 meters from or 5 minutes later than where and when Allah has predestined - not to mention if you die when tilling your fields 50 miles off - unavoidably the entire future of the world is changed. Perhaps not much changed, but like said; multiply it with many billion people through the centuries, and the world is totally changed. And full clairvoyance of course totally impossible - except in occultism, mysticism, made up legends, and in fairy tales.

     

    This that Allah predestines everything like the Quran claims and states many places, is an essential point, because besides totally removing the free will of man (in spite of the Quran's claims of such free will, or some Muslims' adjusted "partly free will for man" - to adjust the meanings where the texts in the Quran are wrong, is typical for Islam and its Muslims) - it also removes the moral behind Allah's punishing (and rewarding) persons for what they say and do - Allah cannot reward or punish people for things he himself has forced them to say or do, and still expect to be believed when he (Muhammad?) claims to be a good or benevolent or moral or just god. Also see 2/51b and 3/24a above.

    And as mentioned above, full predestination also makes prayers to Allah meaningless, as everything already is predestined according to Allah's Plan - a Plan which no prayer ("nobody and nothing") can change. And similar for forgiving.

    Also see 3/154e, 6/149a, 7/34a, 14/22b, and not least 27/22-26 above.

    158 71/9: "Further I (Noah*) have spoken to them (his claimed opponents*) in public and on private - - -". Not from the Bible, but very parallel to Muhammad's own experience till then (he did not get many followers until after he started as a robber baron and got riches to offer and became more powerful). See 71/1-20 above.

    159 71/12b: "- - - bestow on you rivers (of flowing water) - - -". The most frequently used Arabism in the Quran. Muhammad overlooked that if Noah and his people lived in the south of Iraq like one believe (if he is not fiction), they may have had plenty of water (the Euphrates and the Tigris).

    160 71/13a: "What is the matter with you (non-Muslims*), that ye place not your hope for kindness and long-suffering in Allah - - -". The matter is that we do not believe Allah exists, and if he exists, he at least is no god - the errors, etc. in the Quran proves 100% or more that something is seriously wrong with the Quran, with Muhammad and hence with Islam. The people of Noah may have understood the same if Noah preached Islam. (Something which is contradicted by the Bible, For one thing the Bible does not tell about Noah as a man trying to be a missionary for his religion. For another all these details are not from the Bible at all - from where are they as they are not from a god (no god vas ever involved in a book of a quality similar to the Quran)? And for a third: According to the Bible Noah's god was Yahweh, not Allah.

    161 71/23a: "And they (claimed opponents of Noah*) have said - - -: 'Abandon not - - -'" For one thing: Note the close parallel to Muhammad's experience in 621 - 622 AD when this surah was published - Noah like all other prophets with the partly exception of Jesus, was made to look like a parallel to Muhammad - it "showed" that Muhammad's problems were normal for real prophets, and indicated thus that Muhammad was a real prophet. Just read the Quran and you will see how often and how obvious this technique was used. For another thing: This is one more time anomaly.

    #162 71/23b: "Wadd - - - Suwa' - - - Yaghuth - - - Ya'uq - - - Nasr - - -". 5 gods which were cherished in Arabia at the time of Muhammad. But Muhammad claimed these gods were cherished by Noah's people somewhere in southern Mesopotamia (now southern Iraq) 2500 years earlier. What were the chances those people had the same gods as in the distant Arabia some 100 generations later? Muslims of course say these gods were imported from Mesopotamia and were are-old - but there exist no documentation for this at all; just one more of Islam's many not proved claims. Worse: Science believes they were imported from Syria, not from Mesopotamia + that in the old times when there were no books to make ideas permanent, gods slowly changed over the generations - they were not the same through 2500 years. (Just compare to all the chances the god Il went through: First he was the main god Il somewhere in the east (perhaps in south Mesopotamia where one also believes Noah lived - if he is not fiction). Then in Arabia he slowly became the moon god al-Ilah, at least in the southern part. Then he developed into the main god of Arabia, al-Lah and got lots of daughters - angels and goddesses. Then his name drifted towards Allah, but still a pagan main god. And finally Muhammad dressed him up to become the monotheistic god Allah. (But unless everything in the Quran is true, included the never proved claim that the book is from a god, Allah still is a pagan, made up god.)

    Wrong unless Islam proves - proves, not claims - differently.

    163 71/26b: Noah prayed: "Leave not of the Unbelievers a single one on earth". Here is something wrong, for according to the Quran one of his sons was non-Muslim (in the Quran Noah is a good Muslim), and Noah also prayed for his salvation from the water - in vain though. These two prayers contradict each other. (This part of the story is not from the Bible, and is not in accordance with the Bible - there all his 3 sons entered the Ark and were safe).

    164 71/27: "- - - Thy (Allah's*) devotees - - -". According to the Quran, Noah was a good Muslim. Contradicted by the Bible: According to the Bible his god was Yahweh. Also see 67/9c above - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    165 71/28b: "(Allah*). Forgive me (Noah*), my parents, all who enter my house in Faith, and (all) believing men and believing women - - -". These represented the ones Noah took on board the ark - Allah saved all believers according to the Quran. In the Bible only Noah, his wife, his (3) sons and their wives = 8 persons were on board the ark (Gen.6/18 and Gen.7/13). From where did Muhammad get this new information, as no god was involved in the making or delivery of a book of a quality like the Quran?

    Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, something which according to the Quran nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

    166 71/28d: According to Muhammad and the Quran, Noah prayed: "- - - to the Wrongdoers grant Thou (claimed to be Allah*) no increase but in perdition". This is claimed to be in a message from Allah. Compare this to NY - f.x. "the lost coin" (Luke 15/8-10), "the lost sheep" (Matt.18/12-14), "the lost son" (Luke 15/11-31), "the 11. hour" (Matt. 20/8/13) - and you have one more 100% for that Yahweh and Allah were not the same god, and Jesus and Muhammad not in the same line of the moral rules = not in the same religion.

    166 + 7579 = 7745 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).


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    This work was upload with assistance of M. A. Khan, editor of islam-watch.org and the author of "Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism, and Slavery".

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