Humans, Other Beings in/Relevant to the Quran, Part 24

 

141.   JONAH

- the Jewish prophet claimed swallowed by a fish.

Both the Bible and the Quran tells about Jonah and the fish, even though the details vary quite a lot. But the story is physically impossible for several reasons. F.x.:

  1. There exist no fish big enough to swallow a man whole. One seemingly possible exemption is the whale shark, but the whale shark has a throat too narrow for that. The books may have mistaken a whale for a fish, but even the orca - the biggest of the raptor whales - does not swallow a seal (reasonably similar in size to a man) whole.
  2. Even if Jonah had been swallowed whole and alive, he had died from lack of oxygen within some 3 minutes.
  3. And even if he had had a source of oxygen, the juices in the stomach of the fish had caused him an agonizing death within some hours.

And in addition there is the ever reappearing question: As all the mistakes, contradictions, etc. in the Quran prove beyond any reasonable and unreasonable doubt that there was no god behind that book, from where did Mohammad get his non-Biblical "Biblical" information and claimed facts?

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001 4/163e: "- - - We (Allah*) sent it (messages by inspiration*) to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the (12 Jewish*) Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and to Solomon - - -". As Muhammad claimed he received his verses from Allah by inspiration, it was essential to "prove" that this was a normal way for prophets to receive information from the god. And NB: He used these claimed Muslim prophets as proofs for that "inspiration" was a normal way of communication. The word "inspiration" is not used anywhere in the Bible in such connections. Also it is nowhere in the Bible mentioned that Ishmael had a close enough connection to Yahweh to be a prophet.

002 6/85c: "And Ishmael and Elisha, and Jonah, and Lut - - -". 4 time anomalies. See 4/13d above.

003 10/98b: "- - - the people of Jonah - - -". The Quran here refers to the people of Nineveh, which far from was a township, but a large city - the capital of Assyria. Besides according to the Bible they were not Jonah's people - Jonah was a Jew, the people Assyrians. (But the Quran claims that prophets were sent to their own people, and thus claim "the People of Jonah", as this strengthens Muhammad's claim about being a normal prophet - an Arab among his own people.)

 

004 11/70b: "- - - the people of Lut (= Lot in the Bible*)". Here it is meant the people in Sodom and Gomorrah - it is not said here, but according to the Bible - 1. Mos. 19/1 - Lot was in Sodom. (Nobody knows exactly where the two towns lay. Some traditions place them where the Dead Sea is now - an unlikely explanation as the Dead Sea is old. The Quran places them near the shore of that sea - which may be correct - - - if they ever existed. But what is clear both in the Bible and in the Quran in spite of these words, is that those people were NOT the people of Lot. He was the nephew of Abraham and born in Ur in Chaldea in South Iraq. He left Ur as a boy or youth together with his grandfather Terah (Azar in the Quran) and his Uncle Abram - later renamed Abraham - and lived for years in Haran in North Iraq until he and Abram continued to Canaan (now approximately Israel), where they settled in Negev. All this is according to the Bible (1. Mos. 11/31-32 + 12/1-8), but not contradicted by the Quran. They later split because their flocks of animals needed wide areas for grass - Abraham stayed in Canaan (now approximately Israel), whereas Lot moved further east to the valley of Jordan, which may fit well with placing Sodom and Gomorrah near the Dead Sea, as this sea is in the southern end of the Jordan Valley.

An injection: It is not known how many people and animals belonged to Abraham's group, but 1. Mos. 14/14 tells he had 318 trained men "born in his household" = at least 1ooo included women and children. As also big children and youths and for that case women could be shepherds: at least 600 shepherds. As 1 shepherd can look after at least 50-100 animals = at least some 30ooo-60ooo animals. Sheep, goats, cows, donkeys and horses (camels were unknown there until the Assyrians started trade with south Arabia some 1ooo-1200 years later.) The Quran claims Abraham took all these people and animals 750 miles/1200 km to the waterless and grassless valley of Mecca, and lived there for some time, before he returned the same way. Believe it if you are able to.

But what remains is that Lot was a stranger to the area and to the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah. It also is very clear both from the Bible and the Quran that he had not become a naturalized member of the local people - it is clear from the story both in the Bible and in the Quran that he was reckoned to be a stranger. But this sentence is necessary to make Lot confirm to the Quran's claims that Allah sent the prophets (in the Quran Lot is a prophet - not in the Bible) "to their own people". (Claims which are contradicted even in the Quran by the Chaldean (Iraq) Abram/Abraham working in Canaan (Israel), the Canaanite Jew and claimed prophet Joseph working in Egypt, the Egyptian Jew Moses working for 40 years in Midian/Madyan in West Arabia (but the Bible's Midian also may have been in Sudan - one does not know for sure), by the Israeli prophet Jonah working in Nineveh in Assyria in what is now part of Iraq (this is accepted by the Quran) - - - and by the Chaldean Lot living and perhaps working as a prophet near the Dead Sea).

005 14/4a: “We (Allah*) sent not a Messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people - - -.” Wrong. Joseph - if he was a messenger had to speak Egyptian, not his native language. If you can call Moses a Messenger, he had to speak Egyptian in Egypt – not Hebrew. And Egyptian in Midian (in Sinai or Sudan) if he proselytes there (something the Bible does not indicate). And Lot was from Ur in Chaldea (not too far from the Persian Gulf in Iraq), not from Sodom or Gomorrah – and when the Quran says the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were his people, also that is wrong, this even more so as both the Bible and the Quran makes it very clear that not only was he a stranger, but also he was not integrated with the locals. And Jonah (a Hebrew - Jonah 1/9) was not from Nineveh, Assyria, where he had to preach. Also Abraham was a foreigner (from Ur in Chaldea) with a language foreign to the place he settled down (Canaan and Sinai) – if one reckons him to be a messenger.

There also is a related question: Why did Allah send down the Quran only in Arabian? - according to Hadiths Muhammad said it had been sent down in 7 varieties, which all the same all were correct, even if they varied. But why only in Arab. The thousands of Jews in the area could have benefitted from it in Hebrew. And there were big civilizations nearby: Persia, Egypt, the East Roman Empire - but nothing in Persian, Egyptian, Greek or Latin. This is even more strange as at least Persian, Greek and Latin had complete alphabet (Egypt had pictures), and it had been possible to write Allah's exact meaning, which all too often was impossible in the unfinished Arab alphabet (it lacked vowels and the points modern Arab use to write some of its letters + the signs used when writing - the comma, etc.) We have seen claimed that the reason was that Muhammad only knew Arab, and thus could not recite it in other languages. But it had cost an omniscient and omnipotent god exactly nothing to send it down in those languages in other ways. But if it was Muhammad who made up the Quran and knew only Arab well enough, an explanation is very easy to see.

006 17/77a: “(This was Our (Allah’s*)) way with the messengers We sent before thee (Muhammad*) - - -". Wrong. None of the known prophets had an incident leading up to a possible punishment like the "satanic Verses" had merited if Allah had been real - not even Jonah or the claimed prophets known only from the Quran.

007 21/87a: One of the not Arab words in the "pure Arab book" the Quran: "nuun" (title used for Jonah (Yunus)), is not even Arab, but from nwn, Syriac =“fish”. There are many such cases in the "pure Arabic language" in the Quran.

008 29/28a: “- - - Lut (Lot*); behold, he said to his people (the people of Sodom and Gomorrah*) - - -.” Wrong. Those people for one thing were not Lot’s “natural” people, as he was a stranger from very far away (Ur of the Chaldeans in what now is South Iraq, but here living near the Dead Sea), and for another both the Bible and the Quran make it very clear that he also was not a naturalized member of those communities – he was an outsider. (May be the Quran tells they were his people so as to be able to say he was a prophet to his own people, like they falsely claim every prophet was – in spite of Joseph (Egypt), Moses (Sinai(or Sudan?) 40 years), Abraham (Canaan), Lot (Dead See area), Jonah (Nineveh)).

009 30/47c: “We did indeed send, before thee (Muhammad*), messengers to their (respective) peoples - - -.” It is generally an accepted fact – among clergy and science alike, that Abraham was a stranger to Canaan, Lot (a prophet according to the Quran) a stranger to Sodom and Gomorrah, that Jonah was a stranger to Nineveh, the town to which he was sent. Joseph was a stranger in Egypt, Abraham a stranger in Canaan, and Moses a stranger in Sinai (or Sudan?) when he fled from Egypt. Most prophets worked among their own people, but in contradiction with the Quran, not all.

010 37/139a: "So also was Jonah among those sent (by Us (Allah*))". According to the Bible he was sent by Yahweh, not by Allah - there is no traces of neither Allah, Islam or anything like the Quran some 700+ years BC. Neither science nor Islam has found any such traces older than 610 AD when Muhammad started his preaching.

011 37/139b: " - - - Jonah - - -". A preacher asked by Yahweh (according to the Bible - see the Book of Jonah in OT) to go to Nineveh - the capital of Assyria, but did not want to go. Also Jonah is a time anomaly here.

012 37/140: "- - - he (Jonah*) ran away - - -". See 37/12b above.

013 37/141: "- - - he (Jonah*) agreed to cast lots - - -". Jonah fled by a ship from Joppa bound for Tarshish (Jonah 1/3), but the ship run into a storm, and from superstition the crew cast lots to find out who was "guilty" of this storm - and the lot fell on Jonah (and the crew threw him overboard).

*014 37/142a: “Then the big fish swallowed him (Jonah*)”. Wrong.

  1. There exists no fish big enough to swallow a man whole. There is one exception, but that one does not eat large prey (the whale-shark). Besides there may be one or two of the whales (whales are not fish), but even the orca does not swallow a seal (reasonably similar size) in one piece.
  2. Even if he had been swallowed, he had not survived - he had died in minutes from lack of oxygen.
  3. And had he had a supply of oxygen - which he obviously did not - the acid juices in the stomach of the “fish” had killed him in a short time.

A fairy tale, even if this story is “borrowed” from the Bible. (There are some mistakes also in the Bible). About Jonah also in 37/44 among other places.

015 37/142b: (YA4122): YA does not believe the story of Jonah happened at sea: "The Tigris river, mentioned by some of our (Muslims'*) Commentators, is more likely, and it contains some fishes of extraordinary size". This is meaningless - if you meet bad weather on a river, there never are really bad "seas" and there never is a long way to the shore and safety. And in no river in the world there exists fish big enough to swallow a man whole. (But the Bible tells it happened on a ship from Joppa bound for Tarshis (Jonah 1/3) = in the Mediterranean Sea).

###This is one of the very many samples of Islam finding a "good" explanation to an aspect of a point in the Quran, but forgetting that other aspects make the "explanation" impossible or - like here - even laughable: It is not possible for wind to make waves on a river big enough to be dangerous for a ship - and if there was danger, there just are yards and meters to the shore and safety. Sometimes we get the impression that many Muslim scholars never learnt the use of logic or of critical thinking.

##016 37/143: "- - - (Jonah*) glorified Allah - - -". Jonah was a Hebrew - a Jew (Jonah 1/9) who for one thing told he worshipped Yahweh (also Jonah 1/9), and for another thing lived at a time when no Jew believed in Allah (something like 700 BC). (Oh, we know Muhammad wrongly claimed Yahweh just was another name for Allah, but the fact that something is said, does not mean that it is true - especially when there are plenty of proofs for that it is not true (not unless the god is strongly mentally ill - and hardly even then).

017 37/144: “He (Jonah*) would certainly have remained inside the fish till the day of Resurrection”. The fish would not live that long, but that aside: See 37/142a above.

018 37/145: “But We (Allah*) cast him (Jonah*) forth on the naked shore in a state of sickness.”

  1. 68/49: “Had not Grace from his (Jonah’s*) Lord (Allah*) reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on a naked shore, in disgrace.” An exactly 180 degree contradiction.

019 37/146: The story of Jonah roughly follows the Bible, but not this verse, From where did Muhammad get this? Not from a god, as no god was involved in a book of a quality like the Quran. From dark forces? From a sick brain (TLE?)? From a legend? From fantasy?

020 37/147: "We (Allah*) sent him (Jonah*) on a mission to a hundred thousand (men) or more". According to the Bible he was sent to Nineveh, the capital of Assyria, but it seems Muhammad did not know - any god had done.

021 37/148: "And they (the people of Nineveh*) believed - - -". See 3/12b above. Well, according to the Bible they came to believe in Yahweh, not in Allah.

022 37/149a: "Now (Muhammad) ask them (the Arabs*) - - -". Here the Quran suddenly and without warning jumps from Jonah and Nineveh around 700 BC and back to Muhammad and Arabs around 615 - 617 AD. There are quite a few similar jumps in the Quran. Good literature?.

923 38/4c: "- - - from among themselves - - -". Muhammad stressed that prophets came from the people among whom they should work - that was one of his "alibis" for being a prophet even though he was an Arab. For Jews it was correct - their prophets were Jews. But Jonah was not from Nineveh, Abraham not from Canaan, Lot not from Sodom or Gomorrah, Joseph not from Egypt, Moses not from Midian, to mention some of whom the Quran reckons to be prophets.

23 + 4713 = 4736 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).


 

142.   JOSEPH - THE FATHER OF JESUS

Joseph is not a central person neither in the Bible nor in the Quran, and there is limited knowledge about him.

Even though he was close to the center of the stories in NT, Joseph is a peripheral person. According to the Bible he was the fiancée of Mary, Mother of Jesus. When he learnt that she was pregnant, he originally wanted to terminate the engagement, but then an angel told him that Jesus was a special case. Jesus thus officially became his son - Jesus ben Joseph (or as Jesus is the Greek version of Hebrew Yoshua really Yoshua ben Joseph - NT was originally written in Greek and therefore the Greek version of the name was used). When the Quran uses the name Jesus son of Mary - Jesus ben Mary or in Arab Isa bin Maryam - this is wrong.(This even more so as Isa really is Arab for Esau - the brother of the Jewish patriarch Jacob some 1800 years earlier).

##And to make the picture of Muhammad's problems with Jesus' name more complete: Muhammad uses the name Isa for Jesus in the Quran. This is wrong. Isa is the Arab version of Esau (the brother of the Jewish patriarch Jacob). The Arab form for the name Jesus - or Joshua in Hebrew - is Yoshuwa, in Arab Yushuwa. (the spellings may vary a little). Any god had known this - Muhammad obviously not. Who then made the Quran? See also 5/110a above.

As some Muslims claim - only because of wishful thinking and wanting to sully Mary and the Christian religion - that Mary was "easy" and going with Roman soldiers, and thus that an unknown Roman soldier was the real father of Jesus, we here add that also the Quran states that she was a virgin, and this no less than four places (3/47, 19/20, 21/91, 66/12). This means that each time a Muslim use such slander, he/she confirms that the Quran is unreliable and wrong.

Very little is said about Jesus' childhood and youth, but it seems Joseph gave him an ok upbringing.

In some Christian circles one claims that Joseph was an old man already when Jesus was born. There is no reason to believe this, and the only reason for the claim is to indicate that he was too old for sex or at least for much sex, and thus make Mary even more "pure". As for this point the Bible makes it clear that Jesus had siblings (it is somewhat disputed, but the Bible mentions 4 names, James, Joses, Simon, and Judas, as brothers of Jesus. Also sisters are mentioned, but not named.)

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001 3/45f: "- - - his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary - - -". This is the full name the Quran uses for him - to underline their claim that he was not the son of Yahweh. And it is entirely wrong - he never was called "the son of Mary". When a parent's name was mentioned as part of his name (normal in those countries), he was "son of Joseph" - "ben Joseph" - the name of his (adopted?) father on Earth. And to be even more accurate: As Jesus is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Joshua (or Yoshua), Jesus' name there and then would be "Joshua ben Joseph". Any - any - god had known this - Muhammad obviously not. Then who made the Quran?

002 5/110a "O Jesus the son of Mary!". This is a claimed name you some places find for Jesus in the Quran. The point is to fortify Muhammad's claim that Jesus was not the son of Yahweh (in that case he may be was divine, and in any case clearly was a greater and more central prophet than Muhammad, which Muhammad would not accept).

But officially Jesus was the son of Joseph (his official and formal father - the least you can say about the connection between those two, is that Joseph "de facto" had accepted Jesus as his adopted son). If anyone used a "full name" for him in the very man-dominated Israel, it would be "Jesus son of Joseph" - "Jesus ben Joseph" and not "Jesus ben Mary" ("ben" means "son of" in Hebrew - the same as "bin" in Arab). Or to be quite complete: Jesus is the Greek version of his name. The Hebrew version is Joshua. So to be exact his name was "Joshua ben Joseph".

And to make the picture of Muhammad's problems with Jesus' name complete: Muhammad uses the name Isa for Jesus in the Quran. This is wrong. Isa is the Arab version of Esau (the brother of the Jewish patriarch Jacob). The Arab form for the name Jesus - or Joshua in Hebrew - is Yoshuwa (the spelling may vary a little). Any god had known this - Muhammad obviously not. Who then made the Quran?

Finally: As for Muhammad's never documented claim that Jesus was not the son of Yahweh, we may mention that the name "father" is used is used for Yahweh in this connection at least 204 times in the Bible, and the name "son" for Jesus in the same connection at least 89 times - many of those times by Jesus, a prophet whom also the Quran admits is very reliable.

But an extra point here is that if the Quran and Muhammad claim that Jesus was not the son of Yahweh, like they strongly do to try do to make Muhammad the greatest of prophets, the only alternative is that he was the son of Joseph. Then in a strongly male society like the Hebrew - or the Arab - no son of a married couple would accept to be named after his mother. F.x. Muhammad never was called Muhammad bin Amina (his mother's name was Amina). In this case the only name possible for Jesus - and the only name one honestly could use in the old Israel - was Joshua (Jesus) ben Joseph. Any god had known - but Muhammad needed a twist to be able to claim he himself was the greatest.

003 5/112b: "O Jesus the son of Mary!" For one thing your nearest co-workers (here Jesus' disciples*) do not use a long and formal name for you. Plus wrong name - the name of Jesus was Jesus ben Joseph, not Jesus ben Mary. For another see 5/110a above.

004 57/27a: "- - - Jesus, the son of Mary - - -". This is what Muhammad called Jesus - "Isa bin Maryam" in Arab. But it is a wrong name, as his official father was Joseph, and Jesus' name thus Jesus bin Joseph - or Jesus ben Joseph in Hebrew.

##And to make the picture of Muhammad's problems with Jesus' name more complete: Muhammad uses the name Isa for Jesus in the Quran. This is wrong. Isa is the Arab version of Esau (the brother of the Jewish patriarch Jacob). The Arab form for the name Jesus - or Joshua in Hebrew - is Yoshuwa (the spelling may vary a little). Any god had known this - Muhammad obviously not. Who then made the Quran? See also 5/110a above.

4 + 4736 = 4740 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).


 

143.   JOSEPH - SON OF JACOB (JOSEPH OF EGYPT)

Joseph was the second youngest of Jacob's sons. His mother was Rachel, the favorite wife of Jacob. He was not too well liked by his older brothers, and because of this they sold him into slavery, and he ended up in Egypt. According to the Bible he was 17 years old when this happened (1. Mos. 37/2). The Quran claims that his brothers made Jacob send Joseph along with them, whereas the Bible tells Jacob on his own initiative sent Joseph to them where they were tending the cattle to bring back news to Jacob from them (1. Mos. 37/12-14).

Joseph ended up as the slave of a rich and powerful man in Egypt, Potiphar in the Bible. But because the wife of his owner he ended up in prison (there is little logic in his imprisonment the way the Quran tells the story - and also in his claimed later reluctance to be freed). But then by means of his ability to explain dreams, he was set free and became a powerful person.

According to science if Abraham is not fiction, he lived around 2ooo-1700 BC. As Joseph was his great grandson, Joseph must have lived something like 1700-1600 BC - if he is not fiction. (Also according to science Exodus happened around 1235 BC, and according to the Bible the stay in Egypt lasted for 430 years. If this is correct, Joseph’s father Jacob moved to Egypt around 1665 BC.)

A PS from 2015: Before we came aware of that man did not learn how to read and write until around 1300-1200 BC we thought there was a possibillity that Joseph knew how to read. But living something like 1800-1700 BC according to science, this is an impossibility. As Egypt was early, there is a chance that Moses had learnt it, but he in case was the first of the Jews. (The "Books of Moses" are not from Moses, but written sometime between 800 and 500 BC according toscience.)

The Quran claims that all prophets through the times from Adam and down have received books like the Quran. What did f.x. Abraham (some 2ooo-1800 BC), the claimed prophets Hud and Salih (who lived before Abraham according to Islam), Lot (who according to Islam was a prophet, and at the same time as Abraham), and Shu'ayb (4 generations after Lot according to Islam = around 1700 BC or a little later) - what did they use their books for? - and why did Allah send them down to persons he knew were unable to read them?

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*001 2/29f: “- - - He (Allah*) gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments - - -”. Firmament is another word for the heaven we see, though mostly used for the night sky. The Quran many places tells about the seven heavens or firmaments or tracts (the word “heavens” or similar is used in plural in the Quran at least 199 times) - there is no doubt that according to the Quran there are 7 (material) heavens. (Islam also “knows” who inhabit the different heavens - f.x. Jesus in the 2. heaven, Joseph in 4., Aaron in 5., Moses in 6., and Abraham - and Muhammad - in the 7. heaven, and Allah above the 7. heaven, to mention some. This is not said in the Quran, though).

There also is no doubt that the Quran believes the heavens are material - if not it was not possible to build it or to fix the stars to the lowermost heaven, like the Quran states several places. And also the physical resurrected good Muslims need something physical to walk on in their heaven. No god had believed this - but Muhammad did, as this was what one believed in the Middle East at the time of Muhammad. The seven heavens are taken from old Greek astronomy and Persian astronomy, which also believed in 7 heavens. Any god, but not Muhammad, would have known it was very wrong. Islam has several “explanations” concerning this very obvious mistake, but we have never seen or heard any Muslim mention even the possibility that Muhammad’s picture about astronomy could be explained by his believing in Greek or Persian astronomy.

Muslims also sometimes explains that 7 in old Arab was a synonym for “many” (and 70 for “very many“), and that the Quran consequently does not mean 7 but many. But honestly “many” is at least as wrong as “7” (and 7 heavens as said was the astronomy of that time).

But no rocket has till now collided with the heavens!

002 2/50a: “- - - We (Allah*) divided the sea for you (Moses and his Jews*) - - -“. From other places in the Quran (and in most translations of the Bible) it is told that this was the Red Sea. But in the Hebrew original the name is Yam Suph, which as well can mean “The Sea of Reeds” (this also is confirmed in many footnotes in NIV (“New International Version” of the Bible)). The Sea of Reeds (also called the Timsah Sea) used to be a big lake where the Suez Canal now runs – not far from the Bitter Seas. The name tells it was just a shallow lake – the longest reeds we have been able to find, is a kind of rice that can be up to 5 - 7 m long and grows in the big sea Tonle Sap in Cambodia, and the reeds growing in this area of Egypt are shorter - - - and the water cannot be deeper than the reeds get their “heads” above the water to get that name.

Also look at the map: Goshen where the Jews settled was in the river delta of the Nile. To get to Sinai they had to go south-south-east. It would be stupidity beyond any credibility to go so far west that they ended at the western side of the Red Sea instead of walking all the way on dry land, and thus force such a huge number of people and animals to cross the sea by boats they did not have (remember they did not know about the opening of the sea – fire/smoke-column or not (= the pathfinder/Yahweh according to the Bible)). After all they according to the Bible were 600ooo men + women + children + animals and belongings = some 2.ooo.ooo humans at least. (Theoretically it is quite possible for 70 – 100 (depending on how many wives his 11 sons in the group had) persons that came with Jacob + Joseph and his family, to become may be 2.ooo.ooo “Jews” 430 years later.)

Science tells that – if the Exodus took place – the “Jews” quite likely were overtaken as they marched or camped along that lake, just like the Hebrew name in the OT may indicate.

003 5/12c: "- - - We appointed twelve captains among them - - -". Well, Yahweh in one case said that the tribe leaders should lead. But the splitting in 12 tribes was not built on this, but on the 12 sons of Jacob (or to be more exact: Levi's descendants became priests and were split on the other tribes in a way not reckoned as a separate tribe in some connections - though kept apart an counted separately mostly. Then remained 11 of Jacob's sons. But the descendants of Joseph were split in 2 tribes, as his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh each founded a tribe (called half-tribes) = 12 tribes all together if one wants to count this way.) Though often one counted Levi as one and Joseph as one tribe.

004 6/84d: "- - - Noah - - - David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron - - -". 7 time anomalies. See 4/13d above.

005 6/89b: "These were the men (the ones mentioned in verses 6/83 through 6/87*) to whom We (Allah*) gave the Book". The Bible does not mention any book connected to f.x. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ishmael, let alone something like OT or the Quran which is meant here - this also according to science, as no trace of anything similar to the Quran older than 610 AD (when Muhammad started his mission) has ever been found - compared to some 45ooo relevant scriptures and fragments + other traces older than 610 AD from the Bible).

Another point is that no god ever made a book of a quality like the Quran with all its mistakes, etc.

And yet another point is that nomads of those times hardly knew how to read. It is not impossible that Joseph, son of Jacob, learnt how to read and write in Egypt, but but for him it is likely that the first of the central persons in the Bible who knew how to read and write, was Moses.

006 6/89c: "These were the men (the ones mentioned in verses 6/83 through 6/87*) to whom We (Allah*) gave - - - Prophethood - - -". Not all of this is from the Bible. Of the names mentioned only Jesus, Elias (Elijah), Elisha, and Moses are reckoned to be pure prophets, though Abraham, Joseph, and Jonah can be reckoned among them. As for Moses it is correct to reckon him among the prophets, but he was a special case. The same goes even more for Jesus. The others are not reckoned among the prophets in the Bible.

007 6/90a: "Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance - - -". There is documented only one (self proclaimed) prophet who has (claimed he has) got anything from Allah: Muhammad. And he only (claimed he) got the Quran. The others got it from Yahweh according to the Bible - a piece of information never proved wrong by the Quran - claims yes, proofs no.

008 7/130a: “We (indicated Allah*) punished the people of the Pharaoh with years (of draught) - - -.” There is nowhere said directly how long time it took Moses to get his people free and out of Egypt neither in the Quran nor in the Bible. But the few sources indicate a limited time. The Bible has one piece of information that gives a clear indication – and we had better once more mention that science - and Islam - has proved beyond any legal and any reasonable and any unreasonable doubt that the Bible never was falsified, in spite of never documented loose claims and loose statement from the Quran and from Islam. Moses was 80 years old when he came to the Pharaoh to get the freedom for the Jews. Afterwards he and his people spent 40 years in Sinai, and he died 120 years old – which means it must have taken less than one year, perhaps weeks or a few months, because if not the numbers do not add up. Also the texts in the Bible indicate weeks or months, even though it is not directly said. Further there is no mentioning of draught or shortness of food or anything else in the Bible connected to this incident. Also in the science of history, there is no indication of draught or hunger in Egypt at this time. This verse may be a mix up with Joseph and the 7 bad years 430-440 years earlier.

009 7/143c: “- - - I (Moses) am the first to believe.” This one is similar to f.x. 6/14, except here it is Moses instead of Muhammad. But it contradicts the Quran's telling that f.x. Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Hud, Salih, Shu'ayb and others were believing Muslims before him. And Moses and all the others were making a lie out of Muhammad’s saying that he – Muhammad – was the first. A number of contradictions. (2/127-133, 3/67, 6/14, 6/163, 26/51). Muslims tells that these contradictions are not contradictions, because it is meant the first of a group, a nation, or something – but that is not what the Quran says, and it also does not explain all cases.

Another point is that according to the Bible, the god of Moses was Yahweh, not Allah. And as nobody has ever found any traces neither of a god like Allah, nor a religion like Islam, nor a book similar to the Quran older than 610 AD when Mohammad started his mission, it is likely the Bible is right.

010 7/160a: “We divided them (the people of Moses*) into twelve Tribes or nations.” Wrong: They consisted of 12 brothers (the 12 sons of Jacob), then 12 families, then 12 tribes already since after Jacob (some 430 years earlier according to the Bible). And even this is wrong, because Joseph founded 2 tribes: Manasseh and Ephraim (though often called half-tribes). Israel thus consisted of 11 tribes and 2 half-tribes. When the number 12 often is used, the reason may as well be the fact that the Levi tribe was split up and lived together with the other tribes as priests, or that Manasseh and Ephraim were half-tribes and lumped together. (Jesus by the way was from the Judah tribe.)

011 9/114d: “- - - he (Abraham - said by Islam to be a Muslim*) dissociated himself from him (Abraham’s claimed pagan father*)”. Beware that everybody of any positive consequence whom the Quran “borrows” from the Bible, is transformed to be a Muslim in the Quran - anyone, even Jesus and Adam and Noah (the 5. of the most central 5 claimed Muslim prophets in Islam) and Joseph, and Moses and all the prophets - and Abraham.

Be no friend even with your parents if they are not Muslims! (This is a quite normal demand in extreme religious sects - the leaders want full control.)

This is one of the rather sad points of the Quran - even a central point: Islam shall mean so much to you, that if even your closest family - children or parents - do not obey you and become Muslims: Leave them and forget them. Fanaticism shall be the norm in Islam. Similar things are said more places in the Quran - Noah should f.x. let his son drown, because the son was no Muslim (which Noah was said to be!!). A nice and benevolent and human religion.

Only Islam really can be your closest friend. Nothing and nobody else - except Muhammad - counts.

The irony here is that according to the Bible (1. Mos. 11/31-32) the two stayed together for many, many years. (And any honest scientist will tell you that according to normal rules, the Bible will be reckoned to be more reliable than the Quran.)

012 12/4a: "- - - Joseph said to his father (Jacob*) - - -". 2 time anomalies. See 4/13d above.

013 12/4b: "- - - I (Joseph*) did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves to me!" In the Bible Joseph did not see, but dream this - and more (1. Mos. 37/37/9 (and 37/6-7)).

014 12/5a: "Said (the father (Jacob*)): 'My dear little son (Joseph by then was 17 - 1. Mos. 37/2)! Relate not thy vision (dream in the Bible - see 12/4b just above*) to thy brothers - - -". According to the Bible Joseph first told his brothers, and then his father only afterwards (1. Mos. 37/9 and 1. Mos. 37/6-7, + 1. Mos. 37/10). Also a time anomaly.

015 12/6a: (A12/10): “Thus will thy (Joseph’s*) Lord (Allah according to the Quran*) teach thee the interpretations of stories (“ahadith”*) - - -.” The literal meaning of “ahadith” (singular “Hadith”) is “sayings” or “tidings” – "things you are told -“. Most Islamic scholars mean it refers to Joseph’s ability to give interpretations of dreams. But with just a slightly different pronunciation of “Hadith” you get the meaning “a happening”, “an event” – and this in case gives the sentence the meaning that Joseph was taught how to understand the real meaning of or behind what was really said and done in real life, according to M. Azad, based on Razi. Azad also thinks this is the more correct meaning. Two very different skills, in case. And these variants naturally also are in the Arab text, as the relevant word(s) there has/have more than one meaning. Clear meanings in the Quran?

016 12/6b: “Thus will thy (Joseph’s*) Lord (Allah according to the Quran*) teach thee the interpretations of stories (and events) - - -.” There is nothing like this verse in the Bible - and as the Bible was the only source of information (?) about this story, as long as it is clear the Quran is from no god (too much is wrong) - from where did Muhammad get this version?

017 12/6c: "- - - thee (Joseph') - - - Jacob - - - Abraham - - - Isaac - - -". 4 time anomalies. See 4/13d above.

018 12/7b: "Verily, in Joseph and his brethren are Signs (or Symbols) for Seekers (after Truth)". But what does it symbolize if the god was Yahweh like the Bible says, and not Allah?

019 12/7c: "- - - Joseph and his brethren - - -". Benjamin was Joseph's only full brother - both sons of Rachel, Jacob's favorite wife. The other 10 had different mothers (Rachel's sister, Leah, was the mother of Reuben, Simon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulon - Bilha (slave of Rachel) of Dan and Naphtali - Zilpah (slave of Leah) of Gad and Asher. 81. Mos. 35/23-26.)) Also a time anomaly.

020 12/7-18: The main story about Joseph and his brothers is like in the Bible, but not the details. This actually is the case for the entire story about Joseph. (From where did Muhammad get these new details which partly even contradict the Bible? As the Quran is not from a god, also these details are not from a god. Then there remain the alternatives; dark forces, illness, old tales, or making up things.)

021 12/8a: "They (Joseph's half brothers*) said: "Truly Joseph and his brother (Benjamin*) are loved more by our father (Jacob*) - - -". A number of time anomalies. See 4/13d above.

022 12/8b: "They (Joseph's brothers - here except Benjamin*) said: "Truly Joseph and his brother (Benjamin*) are loved more by our father (Jacob*) - - -". How could this end up in the claimed "Mother Book" (of which the Quran is a copy according to Muhammad) billions of years before it was said or happened? One more of the many texts or quotes in the Quran which could not have been reliably written into the claimed "Mother Book" (13/39b, 43/4b+c, 85/21-22) in Heaven (of which the Quran is claimed to be a copy) eons ago, unless predestination was and is 100% like the Quran claims many places (if you look, you will find more cases than we mention - we only mention some of the obvious ones). If man has free will - even partly only (an expression some Muslims use to flee from the problem full predestination contra free will for man (and also contra that there is no meaning in praying to Allah for help, if everything already is predestined in accordance with a plan "nobody and nothing can change" - a problem which Muslims seldom mention), and an expression no Muslim we have met has ever defined) - and can change his mind, full and reliable clairvoyance about the future, not to mention the distant future, is impossible even for a god, as the man always could/can change his mind or his words once more, in spite of Islam's claims. There are at least 5 reasons - at least 3 of them unavoidable - for this:

  1. When something is changed, automatically the future is changed.
  2. The laws of chaos will be at work and change things, if even a tiny part is made different. And multiply even a tiny change with some billion people through the centuries, and many and also big things will be changed.
  3. The displacement of a happening - f.x. the death of a warrior in battle - of only one yard or one minute may or even will change the future forever (that yard or minute f.x. may mean that the warrior killed - or not killed - an opponent). The laws of chaos and the "Butterfly Effect" and the "Domino Effect" kick in.

  4. The so-called "Butterfly Effect"; "a butterfly flapping its wing in Brazil may cause a storm in China later on" or "a small bump may overturn a big load".
  5. The so-called "Domino Effect": Any change will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change - - - and so on forever. Also each cause may cause one or more or many changes. And: The Butterfly Effect only may happen, whereas the Domino Effect is unavoidable and inexorable - a main reason why if you in a battle is killed 5 meters from or 5 minutes later than where and when Allah has predestined - not to mention if you die when tilling your fields 50 miles off - unavoidably the entire future of the world is changed. Perhaps not much changed, but like said; multiply it with many billion people through the centuries, and the world is totally changed. And full clairvoyance of course totally impossible - except in occultism, mysticism, made up legends, and in fairy tales.

This that Allah predestines everything like the Quran claims and states many places, is an essential point, because besides totally removing the free will of man (in spite of the Quran's claims of such free will, or some Muslims' adjusted "partly free will for man" - to adjust the meanings where the texts in the Quran are wrong, is typical for Islam and its Muslims) - it also removes the moral behind Allah's punishing (and rewarding) persons for what they say and do - Allah cannot reward or punish people for things he himself has forced them to say or do, and still expect to be believed when he (Muhammad?) claims to be a good or benevolent or moral or just god. Also see 2/51b and 3/24a above.

And as mentioned above, full predestination also makes prayers to Allah meaningless, as everything already is predestined according to Allah's Plan - a Plan which no prayer ("nobody and nothing") can change.

023 12/8c: "Joseph and his brother - - -." This refers to Benjamin, Joseph's only full brother and the youngest one of Jacob's sons. They were the 2 sons of Rachel - Jacob's favorite wife.

024 12/9a: "Slay ye (Joseph's half brothers*) Joseph or cast him out to some (unknown) land - - -". See 12/8b above.

025 12/9b: "- - - Joseph - - - his father (Jacob*) - - -". 2 time anomalies. See 4/13d above.

026 12/10a: "Said one of them (Joseph's half-brothers*): 'Slay not Joseph - - -". According to the Bible this was Reuben - who wanted to help him (1. Mos. 37/21-22). (The Quran often is short on fact details).

027 12/10b: "Said one of them: (Joseph's half-brothers*): 'Slay not Joseph - - -". See 12/8b above.

028 12/11b: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: 'O our father (Jacob*)! - - -". See 12/8b above.

029 12/11-12: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: 'O our father (Jacob*)! Why dost you not trust us with Joseph - seeing we are indeed his well-wishers? Send him with us tomorrow - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which tells Jacob - not understanding how much his other sons disliked Joseph - sent Joseph to check if everything was ok with his brothers and the animals. (1. Mos. 37/13-14). Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

030 12/12a: "Send him (Joseph*) with us (his half-brothers*) tomorrow - - -". A time anomaly. See 4/13d above.

031 12/12b: "Send him (Joseph*) with us (his half-brothers*) tomorrow - - -". See 12/8b above.

032 12/13b: "(Jacob) said: 'It really saddens me that ye (Joseph's half-brothers*) should take him (Joseph*) away". See 12/8b above.

033 12/13c: "- - - wolf - - -". Such a debate is contradicted by the Bible - see 12/11-12 above. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

034 12/14b: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: 'If the wolf - - -'". See 12/8b above.

035 12/15a: "So they (Joseph's half-brothers*) took him (Joseph*) away - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, according to which Jacob sent him alone to find his brothers - see 12/11-12 above. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

036 12/15c: "So they (Joseph's half-brothers* took him (Joseph*) away - - -". See 12/8b above.

037 12/15d: "- - - We (Allah*) put into his (Joseph's*) brain (this Message): 'Of a surety thou shalt (one day) tell them (your half-brothers*) - - -". There is nothing like such a message - not even an indication for any message at all - in the Bible. Where did Muhammad get this from?

038 12/16b: "Then they (Joseph's half-brothers*) came to their father in the early part of the night - - -". See 12/8b above.

039 12/16c: "Then they (Joseph's half-brothers*) came to their father in the early part of the night weeping". You have to be a good actor to fake weeping - and a top one to fake tears (normally one need chemicals, f.x. onion juice, to be able to fake tears). 10 men out of a group of 10 that good actors? Statistically impossible.

040 12/17b: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: "O our father (Jacob*)! We went racing - - -". See 12/8b above.

041 12/18a: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) stained his (Joseph's*) shirt with false blood". See 12/8b above.

042 12/18c: "- - - it is Allah (alone) Whose help can be sought......'" Contradicted by the Bible, which tells that the god involved was Yahweh. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

043 12/19a: The men from the caravan found Joseph in the well, and “So they concealed him as a treasure”. But the very next verse contradicts this story. See 12/20 below.

044 12/19-20: (Also see 12/19a-d above.) Here is something wrong - or one more contradiction. Verse 19 tells that “travelers” found Joseph in the well where his brothers had thrown him down, and took him for a slave and concealed him. Verse 20 tells his brothers sold him for a few dirhams (small silver coins). Both cannot be true.

######045 12/20aa: "- - - dirhams - - -". These silver coins did not exist at that time - the first ones were minted some 2500 years later. Worse: They did not exist at the time of Muhammad, too, and thus this word cannot have been used by Muhammad when he dictated this surah (at the time of Muhammad time the Arabs mainly used the Greek drachme. The first dirhams were copies of Persian coins where the words "In the name of Allah" were added, and made under caliph Utman. The first "real" dirhams were made under Abdalmalik in 695 AD. The Persian coins may have been called dirhams - a word derived from drachme - but it is ever so clear that even they did not exist at the time of Joseph some 2ooo+ years earlier.)) ################### THE QURAN IS "MUHAMMAD'S EXACT WORDS DOWN TO THE LAST COMMA", like many Muslims claim? Also see 12/20c below.

046 12/20c: “The brethren (of Joseph*) sold him (Joseph*) for a miserable price – for a few dirham”. Dirham was a small silver coin - but serious here: Dirhams did not exist until some 25oo years later. (The Bible says 20 shekels = ca. 200g silver.(1.Mos. 37/28)). Science tells this was a normal price for a young male slave at that time, not "a miserable price". Well, in verse 19 he was found and concealed, here in 20 he was bought. See 12/19a, 12/19-20, and 12/20aa above.

(In Arabia at the time of Muhammad one used Greek drachms. The first dirhams were copies of Persian coins where the words "In the name of Allah" were added, and made under caliph Utman. The first "real" dirhams were made under Abdalmalik in 695 AD. The Persian coins may have been called dirhams - a word derived from drachme - but it is ever so clear that even they did not exist at the time of Joseph some 2ooo+ years earlier.)047 12/21a: "The man in Egypt who bought him - - -". Joseph was sold as a slave in Egypt, according to the Bible to a mighty man called Potiphar, according to the Quran to a man called the Aziz. But as “the Aziz” simply means “the Great One”, it may be a title – perhaps for Potiphar.

After some time the wife of his owner wanted to seduce him. Joseph refused – and everything was found out. According to the Bible his owner got angry and put him in prison. According to the Quran Joseph proved he was not guilty, but was all the same put in prison on a very lame and not logical “reason” – lame and illogical, but necessary for the rest of the story.

(As for Joseph’s age when he was brought to Egypt, Yusuf Ali in “The Meaning of the Holy Quran” says he was 16 or 17 or may be even 18. (The Bible says he was 17 - 1. Mos. 37/2)).

048 12/21c: "The man (the Aziz/Potiphar*) in Egypt who bought him (Joseph*), said to his wife: 'Make his (Joseph's*) stay - - -". See 12/8b above.

049 12/21d: "- - - maybe he (Joseph*) will bring us much good, or we shall adopt him as a son". Not much likely a rich and mighty man saying such things on buying a lowly slave.

050 12/21e: "- - - maybe he (Joseph*) will bring us much good, or we shall adopt him as a son". This is not from the Bible - like a number of other details in the story of Joseph. From where did Muhammad get this?

051 12/21f: "And Allah hath full power and control over His (Allah's*) affairs - - -". Allah decides everything, and nothing can change his Plan. Full predestination.

052 12/21g: "And Allah hath full power and control over His (Allah's*) affairs - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which tells that the god of Joseph was Yahweh, not Allah. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

053 12/22aa: "When Joseph attained full manhood - - -". When he was sold he was 17 (1. Mos. 37/2), and thus an adult as one reckoned it in the old times.

054 12/23b: "- - - she (the wife of Joseph's owner*) sought to seduce him (Joseph*) - - - and said: 'Now come - - -'". See 12/8b above.

055 12/24a: "And (with passion) did she (the wife of Joseph's owner*) desire him (Joseph*) - - -". 2 time anomalies. See 4/13d above.

056 12/25a: "They (she and Joseph*) both raced each other to the door - - -". Time anomalies. See 4/13d above.

057 12/25b: "They (she and Joseph*) both raced each other to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back - - -". See 12/8b above.

058 12/25c: "They (she and Joseph*) both raced each other to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back - - -". This is not from the Bible - like much else in this story. From where did Muhammad get it?

059 12/26b: "He (Joseph*) said: 'It was she - - -". See 12/8b above.

060 12/26c: "- - - one of her (the wife of Joseph's owner's*) household - - - bore witness - - -". A time anomaly. See 4/13d above.

061 12/26d: "- - - one of her (the wife of Joseph's owner's*) household - - - bore witness (thus) - 'If it was she - - -". See 12/8b above.

062 12/26-27: "If it be that his (Joseph's*) shirt is rent from the front, then is her (the wife of Joseph's owner*) tale true, and he is a liar! But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth!" One thing is that this logic at best is valid as an indicium, not as a proof - but as mentioned Muhammad was very liberal with the use of the word "proof", as you see all over the Quran. But may be worse: This is not from the Bible - where did Muhammad get this from?

063 12/27b: "- - - his (Joseph's*) shirt is torn - - -". See 12/8b above.

064 12/28b: "- - - when he (Joseph's owner*) saw his (Joseph's*) shirt - - - (he*) said: 'Behold - - -". See 12/8b above.

065 12/28c: "Truly - - -". Definitely not a proved truth - only a not proved claim. See 2/2b above.

066 12/29a: "O Joseph, pass this over! (O wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin, for truly thou hast been at fault!" Not only contradicted by the Bible, but incompatible with this story in the Bible. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

067 12/29b: "O Joseph, pass this over! (O wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin, for truly thou hast been at fault!" Can anyone please tell us what the logic of putting Joseph in prison is?! This (and also the ladies with the knives) is not from the Bible - in the Bible the story is logical - not so in the Quran - - - far from good literature. (But Joseph had to end in prison - logic or no logic - because of the rest of the story).

068 12/29c: "O Joseph, pass this over! (O wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin, for truly thou hast been at fault!" See 12/8b above.

Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, something which according to the Quran nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

069 12/30b: "Ladies said in the City: 'The wife - - -". Not from the Bible.

#070 12/30-34: This is not from the Bible. From where did Muhammad get it? (There many places are reason for using this question in the Quran - and Muslims claims:"From Allah". But as it is clear no god was ever involved in a book of a quality like the Quran, only these possibilities remains: From dark forces - and the hate and blood and acceptance of dishonesty, not to mention the partly immoral moral code, etc. may indicate this. Or a mental illness - modern medical science believe he had TFL (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy), as both his religious "experiences" and the seizures Islam describes he had, indicates this. Or made up tales - Muhammad had a reputation for being a little naive when it came to discerning truth from made up tales, and the fact that most of the tales in the Quran are known apocryphal (made up) tales, legends, folk tales, and fairy tales from the old Arabia and its surroundings, may indicate this. Or Muhammad himself or some accomplice(s) made it all up - the very many cases of wrong facts which were believed to be correct at the time of Muhammad, which you find in the Quran, the fact that "everything" fitted Muhammad's position at the time when the surahs were released (nothing really pointed forwards - wishes, etc. yes, but no real facts about the future), and all the times Muhammad personally got help from Allah (like so many a self proclaimed prophet), may indicate this. Or may be a combination of 2 of more of these possibilities. (Just for the record: When mentioning this, we often lump the fairy tales, etc., together with the scheming, cold brain.))

071 12/31a: "When she (the wife of Joseph's owner*) heard of their (women in the city*) malicious talk - - -". A time anomaly.

072 12/31b: "- - - she (the wife of Joseph's owner*) sent for them (women in the city*) and prepared a banquet for them - - -". See 12/8b above.

073 12/31c: (A27 – in 2008 edition A28): “- - - she (the wife of the Aziz (in reality likely a title = “the mighty one”, not a name – the name in the Bible is Potiphar*)*) sent for them (the slandering ladies*) and prepared a banquet for them - - -.” What the Arab texts really tells she did, was “to prepare a place where one reclines – (“muttaka’”)” – or “a cushioned couch”. But this is not clear enough language – hence the “explaining translations”: “banquet”, “sumptuous repast”, or similar used by them. Clear language?

074 12/31d: "When they (some women*) saw him (Joseph*), they - - - cut their hands - - -". There is little logic in the point here: Why giving them knives before showing them Joseph? (Some Muslims say it was to cut fruit, but when you cut fruit, you cut the fruit and lay down the knife mostly – few had had the knife in their hands at any given moment, and fewer so distracted or stupefied that they would cut themselves). And it is not a natural reaction to be so stupefied by a face, that all and every of them cut their fingers – one or at most two could have done so, though unlikely, but not more. The story is unlikely for at least one more reason: If Joseph was so attractive, this would have been in the grapevine, and they had been prepared for it. (It is permitted to use your brain and your knowledge when reading a story, not only your eyes.) This also is not from the Bible.

075 12/31e: "Allah preserve us (some women in Egypt*)!" This tells indirectly, but clearly that the women were Muslim. But Islam was totally unknown in Egypt around 1800-1700 BC (Joseph lived something like a century after Abraham, his great grandfather, who lived around 2000-1800 BC according to science - if they were not both fiction. Or to recon the other way: Exodus was ca. 1235 BC. Then the Jews had lived in Egypt for 430 years according to the Bible (2. Mos. 12/40-41). This happened(?) a few years before the Jews moved to Egypt - if the numbers are correct it must have happened around 1670 BC. In Egypt people (likely except the Jews partly) were polytheists - no trace of monotheism is found at this time. (There was Akn Aton and his sun god, but not just then (pharaoh 1372 - 1355 BC)).

Muhammad claimed Islam had existed to all times and in all places - obviously wrong.

076 12/31f: "This (Joseph*) is none other than a noble angel!" Not from the Bible - then from where?

077 12/32c: "And now, if he (Joseph*) doth not my (the wife of Joseph's owner's*) bidding (have sex with her*), he shall certainly be cast in prison". The only thing which is certain here is that no wife in even a pre-Arabic Egypt would say a thing like this in public, and certainly not after a narrow escape from her husband shortly before.

078 12/32d: What was the logic of for the Aziz/Potiphar to agree to putting Joseph in prison when it was proved he was not guilty? (A contradiction to the Bible where this was not proved and there the story is logical). This after all was at a moment where the wife should have been careful. (Muslims have a kind of explanation, but only a kind of). But imprisonment is necessary for the rest of the story.

Well, the Quran implies Joseph was put to prison by the woman because he still did not want her. A spiteful woman could do so, but any sane husband then would ask questions - - - and there would be rumors in addition he would sooner or later hear, as you bet the other ladies would wag their tongues.

079 12/33b: "The prison is more to my (Joseph's*) liking - - - (etc.*) - - -". Not from the Bible. From where?

080 12/35a: "Then it occurred to the men (which ones?*), after they had seen the Signs (that it was best) to imprison him for a time." No real reason is given. All which is reported her, is that the ladies thought he was very handsome (not specified in the Bible), but that is no "sign". But as said - his (Joseph's) imprisonment, logical or not, was necessary for the rest of the story.

According to the Quran – but not to the Bible – there was some drama because Joseph demanded to prove his innocence (illogical as he was proved – according to the same Quran - innocent already before he ended in prison).

081 12/36a: "- - - him (Joseph*) - - - two young men (the pharaoh's servants*) - - -". Time anomalies.

082 12/36c: "Said the other (servant*): 'I see myself - - -". See 12/8b above.

083 12/37b: "He (Joseph*) said: Before any food - - -". See 12/8b above.

084 12/37c: "- - - Allah - - -". Just for the record: According to the Bible, Joseph's god was Yahweh, not Allah.

085 12/38a: "- - - I (Joseph*) - - - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - - -". 4 time anomalies.

086 12/39a: "O my (Joseph's*) two companions - - -". Time anomalies.

087 12/39c: "- - - Allah, the One, Supreme and Irresistible - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which tells that Joseph's god was Yahweh, not Allah. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

088 12/40a: "- - - ye (pagans*) worship nothing but names which ye have named - ye and your fathers (Joseph said*) - - -". And if the Quran is a made up book, the situation is just the same for Muslims - and the Quran with all its mistakes, etc. at least is from no god.

089 12/40f: "He (Allah*) hath commanded that ye (Egyptians*) worship none but Him - - -". For one thing there nowhere are traces from such an order or god or religion in Egypt at the time of Joseph, and for another there is no such religious debate in the Bible. From where did Muhammad get the information about it?

Another point is that there never was found any trace from a religion like Islam, a god like Allah or a book similar to the Quran anywhere in Egypt (or anywhere else in the world) until well after 610 AD when Muhammad started his mission.

090 12/41a: "O my (Joseph's*) two companions of the prison". Time anomaly.

091 12/41b: “- - - he will hang from a cross - - -”. Egypt at the time of Joseph did not use execution by crucifixion. (In the Bible he was hanged - 1. Mos. 40/22). Any god had known - Muhammad not. Who made the Quran?

092 12/42b: "But Satan made him (the servant of the Pharaoh - the cupbearer*) forget (Joseph*) - - -". How could Satan make him forget - or do anything - if Allah predestines every detail of your life and according to his unchangeable Plan, like the Quran states many times?

093 12/44b: "They (the chiefs*) said: ' A confused medley of a dream - - -". See 12/43b above.

094 12/46b: "O Joseph!" (He (the cupbearer*) said) 'O man of truth! - - -". See 12/43b above.

095 12/47b: "(Joseph*) said: 'For seven years - - -'". See 12/43b above.

096 12/49a: “Then will come after that (period) a year in which the people will have abundant water - - -“. But the Arab word that is used her, and that is translated with “abundant water” is “yughathu” or “yughath” which in reality is said to mean “to be relieved by rain” (Joseph Al-Fadi (Christian)). As also “The Message of the Quran” has this translation (translated from Swedish): “- - - a year when the people will be blessed by rain - - -“, and has a similar comment to the word, and as we have met this translation before, we judge that Yusuf Ali has “stretched” his transcription a little (in case the true meaning is “rain”, it tells something). In Egypt one has little and no rain – it is the flood in the Nile which brings water - - - which means the Quran once more is wrong. (“The Message of the Quran" elegantly explains that it must mean rain further south in Africa, that made the Nile big, but this is not what the book says). Also see 12/49b just below.

097 12/49b: (A12/44 – in 2008 edition A12/48): “Then will come after that (period) a year in which the people will have abundant water - - -.” Here the language in the Quran is so unclear – read “directly wrong” - that A. Yusuf Ali’s religion has subdued his moral and intellectual integrity. The Arab verb that is used – “yughath” – derives either from the noun “ghayth” = “rain”, or from another noun “ghawth” = “deliverance from distress”. There is no way that it can mean just “water”. The “clear language” offers 2 choices – one wrong, one not a good description, so the pious Muslims used a 3. and dishonest one as Egypt did not get rain but flooding of the Nile (or actually a “Kitman” – a lawful half-truth – as the rain much further south in Africa causes the flood - - - but that is not what the Quran is talking about.) Well, to be polite and forget the dishonesty – al-Taqiyya (which Kitman is a version of) – the lawful lie - after all is lawful in Islam, and even advised to use if necessary to defend or promote Islam (and curiously enough also permitted to use f.x. to cheat women – something for women to remember sometimes - - - f.x. that a marriage is a possible way for a Muslim man to get residence permit in a rich country – it happens now and then - and it is permitted to use al-Taqiyya also f.x. to save your money). And these variants inevitably also are in the Arab text, as the relevant word(s) there has/have more than one meaning.

The lawful dishonesty - al-Taqiyya (the lawful lie), Kitman (The lawful half-truth), Hilah (the lawful pretending), for one thing are integrated and accepted - even promoted in some cases - parts of the Quran's moral code, and for another thing permit the use of dishonesty in forming and "explaining" Islam's moral code and the arguments behind it (like Yusuf Ali is practicing here). Also remember that dishonest deeds - stealing/looting, extortion, etc. - are integrated and accepted parts of the Quran, of Muhammad's words and deeds, and of Islam's moral code.

098 12/50b: "So the king (Pharaoh*) said: 'Bring ye him unto me". See 12/43b above.

099 12/50-51: Joseph does not want to leave the prison unless he is deemed not guilty. This is not from the Bible - the only known source for information about this incident, except legend and fairy tales, as the Quran is not from any god with all its mistakes, etc. Besides it is nonsense, since he already was judged not guilty according to the ladies) - - -". A time anomaly.

100 12/51c: "(The king (Pharaoh*)) said (to the ladies): What was your affair when ye did seek to seduce Joseph - - -". One thing is that this tale is not from the Bible, and thus of unknown origin. Worse just here is that the Quran here contradicts itself, as these ladies also according to the Quran (12/30-35) did not try to seduce him to anything - only the Aziz's wife tried to do so.

101 12/51d: “What was your (the ladies’*) affair when you ye did try to seduce him (Joseph*) - - -“. According to 12/23 it only was the wife of the Aziz who tried this. Mistake and contradiction. (The wife invited some women friends to show them how handsome – not to say beautiful – Joseph was. With dramatic effect: They hurt themselves with knives in a scene credible only in third class novels for children, not for adults - but they did not try to seduce him (12/30-32 above)).

102 12/52e: (A12/47 – in the 2008 edition A12/51): “This (say I), in order that he (the Aziz*) may know that I (Joseph*) have never been false to him in his absence, and that Allah will never guide the snare of the false ones. Nor do I absolve my own self - - -.” All this is well and good. But who says this? Is it the wife, like f.x. Ibn Kathir and Rashid Rida guess? – or is it Joseph, like among others Tabari, Baghawi, and Zamakhshari believe? The clear (?) language in the Quran does not give one single reliable clue – it is anybody’s guess. Clear and unmistakable texts?

103 12/54b: "So the king (Pharaoh*)) said: 'Bring him (Joseph*) onto me - - -". See 12/43b above.

104 12/54c: "So the king said: 'Bring him (Joseph*) onto me - - -". This is contradicted by the Bible - see 12/50c above. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

105 12/58-68; Everything happened like Joseph had said. And his brothers came to Egypt to buy food. There were some intermezzos because Joseph did not want to tell whom he was, but all the same wanted contact with his family. The main story is like in the Bible, though details vary. Those details either are from legends, etc. or made up ones, as there are no other sources (as the Quran with all its errors is not from a god who could have told it, like Muslims like to claim).

106 12/59a: "- - - when he (Joseph*) had furnished them (his half-brothers*) - - -". Time anomalies.

107 12/59b: The part of the story this and the next verse cover, is a lot more dramatic in the Bible (1. Mos. 42/9-24).

108 12/60a: "Now if ye (Joseph's half brothers*) bring him not to me, ye shall have no measure (of corn) from me (Joseph*), nor shall ye (even) come near me". In the Bible the treat is death penalty (1. Mos. 42/20).

109 12/62a: "And (Joseph) told his servants - - -". A time anomaly.

110 12/69c: Joseph told Benjamin: “Behold! I am thy (own) brother - - -“. Contradicted by the Bible, which says Joseph did not tell this until later. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

111 12/69d: Joseph told Benjamin: “Behold! I am thy (own) brother - - -“. It does not fit verses 70 – 77 that he told it at this time. The story simply fizzles out in case - literature not even worthy a story for a magazine for teen-age girls.

112 12/69-79: The main story about Joseph follows the Bible, the details differ. See 12/58-68 above.

113 12/76c: "So he (Joseph*) began (the search) - - - (and found the beaker*)". This is where the tale fizzles out - if not before (see 12/69d above). If Benjamin had known Joseph was his/their brother, if not before then now he had talked - not to mention during the threatening continuation of the tale like the Quran tells it.

114 12/76d: "- - - at length he (Joseph*) brought it (the beaker*) out of his brother's (Benjamin's*) baggage". What had happened here if Benjamin had known Joseph was his brother like said in 12/69d? The logic in the tale is wrong.

The ones claiming the Quran is good literature know very little about good literature.

115 12/76e: "Thus did We (Allah*) plan for Joseph". To plan this did not need any god.

116 12/76g: "He (Joseph*) could not take his brother (Benjamin*) by the law of the king - - -". This is rubbish to use polite words. One thing is that Joseph was not after his brother Benjamin - Benjamin had not wronged him. He was after his half-brothers - to frighten them (hardly any more). But the main point is that in a full dictatorship like the old Egypt, the king/pharaoh AND his highest officers could - and can - do almost what they wanted, included detain a man or more. At most they had to find an excuse. F.x. Joseph could use the excuse he according to the Bible used to hold back in prison his half-brother Simeon from the first trip (1. Mos. 42/12-24). This storey is told by someone who did not know what he was talking about, or someone who did not have a more creative mind - - - and to believe it, also the listeners had to be little bright or little knowledgeable.

117 12/77c: “If he (Benjamin*) steals, there was a brother of his (Joseph*) who did steal before (him)”. Here something is wrong: The youth Joseph was not accused of stealing. (Some Muslims explain the sentence with that it was a lie they uttered to create more distance between themselves and Benjamin. Or that they were blinded by hate to Joseph and Benjamin, and said it from spite. These about the only possible "explanations" one can use to get out of this mistake(?), but neither the Quran nor the Bible indicates that they tried to do this. Also neither the Bible nor the Quran indicates that they had negative feelings for Benjamin.)

118 12/79b: "He (Joseph*) said: 'Allah forbid - - -'". According to the Bible Joseph's god was Yahweh, not Allah.

119 12/80c: "The leader among them (the brothers*) - - -". Like so many low quality books, the Quran often is short on real and controllable facts - like in this story f.x. the names of the brothers. (Shortage on controllable facts is typical for low quality literature). Their leader likely was Reuben - the oldest one and the same one who according to the Bible (like here not named in the Quran) tried to save Joseph originally.

120 12/80e: "- - - Joseph - - -". A time anomaly.

121 12/83c: "- - - may be Allah will bring them (Joseph and Benjamin*) back to me (Jacob*) - - -". The Quran some places makes it clear that Jacob did not believe Joseph was dead - a prophet like Jacob could not be wrong. In the Bible it is clear Jacob believed Joseph was dead (1. Mos. 42/38 - Jacob says Benjamin is the only son of Rachel left). (Just for the record: When 1.Mos. 43/14 says "your other brother and Benjamin", it is meant Simeon and Benjamin.)

122 12/87a: Jacob said: “O my sons! Go ye (to Egypt*) and enquire about Joseph and his brother - - -". Jacob stayed at home (in Canaan), and his sons vent to Egypt (the 3. trip). But the fact (both according to the Bible and to the Quran) that Jacob stayed at home, is contradicted by:

  1. 00a 12/94-95: “When the Caravan left (Egypt), their father said: ‘I do indeed scent the presence of Joseph: nay, think me not a dotard’. They (his sons*) said: ‘By Allah! Truly thou art in thine old wandering mind.’”

How could Jacob smell the scent and how could he talk to his sons when they were hundreds of kilometers away?

123 12/87b: Jacob said: “O my sons! Go ye (to Egypt*) and enquire about Joseph and his brother - - -". It is clear from some places in the Quran that Jacob did not believe Joseph was dead. But this is contradicted by the Bible, which says he believed he was dead (1. Mos. 42/38). Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

124 12/88b: "- - - when they (the brothers*) came back into (Joseph's) presence, they said: O exalted one! - - -". See 12/80b above.

125 12/90b: "They (the brothers*) said: 'Art thou indeed Joseph?'". See 12/80b above.

126 12/90d: "- - - Allah - - -". According to the Bible Joseph’s god was Yahweh, not Allah.

127 12/92b: "- - - Allah will forgive you (the brothers*) - - -". According to the Bible, Joseph's god was Yahweh, not Allah.

As for forgiving from Allah: See 2/187d above.

128 12/93a: "Go with this my (Joseph's*) skirt - - -". This story is not in the Bible. If Allah really made the Quran, it may be true. If not also this part of the Quran is made up, as there existed no other source who should tell the maker of the Quran this story some 2400 years later - except perhaps legends and fairy tales - - - and perhaps black forces.

129 12/93b: "Then come ye (the brothers*) (here) to me (Joseph*) together with all your family". Time anomalies.

130 12/94-95a: "When the caravan left (Egypt), their father said: 'I do indeed scent the presence of Joseph - - -." Contradicted by the Quran telling Jacob stayed at home and impossibly could scent anything in the caravan of his sons travelling from Egypt. See 12/87a and 12/94 above. Some Muslims claim Jacob knew by some sort of ESP (Extrasensory Perception) - f.x YA1770. Such comments need no comments.

131 12/94-95b: "When the caravan left (Egypt), their father said: 'I do indeed scent the presence of Joseph - - -." This tale is not from the Bible. From where did Muhammad get it?

132 12/99a: Jacob and his entire household then went to Egypt to Joseph. All together they were 70 persons + the wives of his sons according to the Bible (1. Mos. 46/27). And their descendants stayed there for 430 years according to very clear statements in the Bible - until ca. 1235 BC according to science. If these two numbers are correct, this means that Jacob went to Egypt around 1665 BC.

133 12/99c: “- - - he (Joseph*) provided a home for his parents - - -“. Not possible, as his mother (Rachel) died already when Benjamin was born – he could provide a home only for his father. (Islam explains or “explains” this with claiming that he reckoned the sister of his mother (Leah - also wife of Jacob) to be his mother, but there is nothing neither in the Quran nor in the Bible saying so. But then it is quite normal for Islam to make claims without facts.) One more small detail here. Abraham first married Leah, and later her sister Rachel. But Muslims cannot be married to 2 sisters at the same time, which Jacob was for a long time. How then could Jacob be a good and devoted Muslim? - the "mother book" in Heaven they claim he, too, got a copy and the laws from, had not changed.

134 12/99d: (A12/92 – in 2008 edition A12/96): “(Joseph*) provided a home for his parents - - -.” What does this mean? The Bible tells and the Quran does not object to that his mother Rachel died in childbirth when Benjamin was born, and he only had his father Jacob. Muslims “may", therefore, assume that the “mother” implied in the term “parents” was another of Jacob’s wives - - -.” It is not uncommon to call a foster mother for “mother”. In some cultures it even is common to use the words “mother” and “father” as a respectful title when speaking with old people. But a pet name, a respectful name/title, does not make someone your parent. The very least that should have been done by Allah if he claimed to use a language “clear and easy to understand” was to say “his father and step-mother”. (The likely explanation is that Muhammad when he told this, forgot or did not know that Joseph’s mother was dead).

135 12/99e: "- - - Allah". As mentioned before, according to the Bible Jacob's and Joseph's god was Yahweh, not Allah.

136 12/100a: (A12/95 – in 2008 edition A12/98, A12/99): “- - - and they Jacob and his family*) fell down in prostration, (all) before him (Joseph*) - - -.” Here is a big conundrum inside a riddle surrounded by a puzzle for Islam. A pious prophet like Jacob impossibly could prostrate himself before a human. And an as pious prophet like Joseph impossibly could have accepted it. Something has to be wrong in the text. This even though the Arab text “wa-kharru lahu sudjdjadah” literally means “- - - and they fell down before him in (alternatively “like in”) prostration (or “praying to him” according to the Swedish copy)”. Islam has no good explanations that we have found. According to ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abbas the “him” in “before him” must refer to Allah – which it most clearly does not do. Razi explains that Joseph’s dream was not fully fulfilled, etc. Actually here the text is very clear – and the only thing Muslim scholars agree on, is that the literal meaning must be wrong, and this without having a good alternative meaning.

137 12/100c: “- - - and they (Jacob and his family*) fell down in prostration, (all) before him (Joseph*) - - -.” This or something similar is not to be found in the Bible.

138 12/101d: "Thou (here indicated Allah*) art my (Joseph's*) Protector in this world and in the Hereafter". Not possible unless Allah exists and is a god. Also contradicted by the Bible.

139 12/101e: "Take Thou (Allah) my (Joseph's*) soul - - - (as a Muslim)". Believe it if you want - but remember how many mistakes, errors, etc. there are in the Quran, and that there does not exist one single trace from Islam or similar anywhere in the world in the world older than 610 AD. Not one single (except the two building on the Bible, and they - and especially the Christian one - are so far from Islam, that the claimed relationship mostly just are claims, and the rest superficial points). Well, according to the Bible Joseph's god was Yahweh, not Allah.

140 12/101f: "Take Thou (Allah) my (Joseph's*) soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy (here indicated Allah's*) Will (as a Muslim) - - -". For one thing there is nothing even remotely similar to this in the Bible, and for another: This text is incompatible with the Bible to say the least of it - according to the Bible Joseph's god was Yahweh, not Allah, and according to facts neither science, nor Islam has found one single trace of Muslims/Islam older than 610 AH - Joseph (if he is not fiction) lived 2ooo-2500 years earlier.

##141 12/111c: “- - - a confirmation of what went before (the Bible) - - -”. When there are so many and so serious mistakes in a book, it is not to be expected that the reader can believe too much. Just the story about Josef is taken from the Bible (which “went before“). But the story is much changed (maybe he in reality has retold a local legend about Josef, slightly based on the Bible) - it is no confirmation. On the background of all the documented mistakes in the Quran, which is easiest to believe, if any - the Quran or the Bible? Not to mention the fact that many of the stories in the Quran are easy to recognize from known legends, fairy tales, apocryphal (made up) books, etc, from the time of Muhammad. And at least some of the details in this story in the Quran are illogical - like Solomon listening to the speech of ants. More to the point: There are too many and too fundamental differences in the teachings - the Quran does not confirm the Bible.

142 14/4a: “We (Allah*) sent not a Messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people - - -.” Wrong. Joseph - if he was a messenger had to speak Egyptian, not his native language. If you can call Moses a Messenger, he had to speak Egyptian in Egypt – not Hebrew. And Egyptian in Midian (in Sinai or Sudan) if he proselyted there (something the Bible does not indicate). And Lot was from Ur in Chaldea (not too far from the Persian Gulf in Iraq), not from Sodom or Gomorrah – and when the Quran says the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were his people, also that is wrong, this even more so as both the Bible and the Quran makes it very clear that not only was he a stranger, but also he was not integrated with the locals. And Jonah (a Hebrew - Jonah 1/9) was not from Nineveh, Assyria, where he had to preach. Also Abraham was a foreigner (from Ur in Chaldea) with a language foreign to the place he settled down (Canaan and Sinai) – if one reckons him to be a messenger.

There also is a related question: Why did Allah send down the Quran only in Arabian? - according to Hadiths Muhammad said it had been sent down in 7 varieties, which all the same all were correct, even if they varied. But why only in Arab. The thousands of Jews in the area could have benefitted from it in Hebrew. And there were big civilizations nearby: Persia, Egypt, the East Roman Empire - but nothing in Persian, Egyptian, Greek or Latin. This is even more strange as at least Persian, Greek and Latin had complete alphabet (Egypt had pictures), and it had been possible to write Allah's exact meaning, which all too often was impossible in the unfinished Arab alphabet (it lacked vowels and the points modern Arab use to write some of its letters + the writing mark, like the comma). We have seen claimed that the reason was that Muhammad only knew Arab, and thus could not recite it in other languages. But it had cost an omniscient and omnipotent god exactly nothing to send it down in those languages in other ways. But if it was Muhammad who made up the Quran and knew only Arab well enough, an explanation is very easy to see.

143 15/9c: "- - - We (Allah*) will assuredly guard (it (the Quran*) (from corruption)". Some Muslims mention this as a proof for that the Quran is an exact copy of Muhammad's words - Allah guards it against corruption, and then nothing can possibly have changed even a comma. But the history of the Quran is pretty turbulent, and many versions have existed - nobody knows how many (at least 4 much used before the official version was made by Caliph Utman, and at least 24 later (a long period many more) - 14 of them canonized). This mainly because of the unfinished Arab alphabet - it was not completed until around 900 AD. Finally 7 different editions were canonized, each of them in 2 versions = 14 different. Slowly most of them fell into disuse, and today there are 2 versions in daily use - after Hafs and after Warsh, plus 4 a little. So just you guess if the Quran has been corrupted!

####There also is a small fact: In chapter 12 Joseph was sold "for a few dirhams". But dirhams did not exist at the time of Muhammad. For one thing he thus could not talk about that coin, and if he all the same did, nobody had understood what he was talking about. A strong proof for that the Quran is not the exact words of Muhammad - at least not all of it (and if some is and some not, which are his words and which not?)

(In Arabia at the time of Muhammad one used Greek drachms. The first dirhams were copies of Persian coins where the words "In the name of Allah" were added, and made under caliph Utman. The first "real" dirhams were made under Abdalmalik in 695 AD. The Persian coins may have been called dirhams - a word derived from drachme - but it is ever so clear that even they did not exist at the time of Joseph some 2ooo+ years earlier.)

Another point is that if the Quran is not from a god, what the book says about the god guarding it, is totally without any value. And no book as full of errors and other weaknesses is from a god.

144 30/47c: “We did indeed send, before thee (Muhammad*), messengers to their (respective) peoples - - -.” It is generally an accepted fact – among clergy and science alike, that Abraham was a stranger to Canaan, Lot (a prophet according to the Quran) a stranger to Sodom and Gomorrah, that Jonah was a stranger to Nineveh, the town to which he was sent. Joseph was a stranger in Egypt, and Moses a stranger in Sinai (or Sudan?) when he fled from Egypt. Most prophets worked among their own people, but in contradiction with the Quran, not all.

145 38/4c: "- - - from among themselves - - -". Muhammad stressed that prophets came from the people among whom they should work - that was one of his "alibis" for being a prophet even though he was an Arab. For Jews it was correct - their prophets were Jews. But Jonah was not from Nineveh, Abraham not from Canaan, Lot not from Sodom or Gomorrah, Joseph not from Egypt, Moses not from Midian, to mention some of whom the Quran reckons to be prophets.

146 40/34a: "- - - there came Joseph in times gone by - - -". If we presume that science has the time for Exodus correct, it happened around 1235 BC (according to f.x. Encyclopedia Britannica). If we further presume that the Bible is correct when it says the Jews stayed in Egypt for 430 years - and there were no reasons for the original writers of those scriptures to falsify that number, and neither have we seen strong protests about it from serious scientists - Jacob and his family emigrated to Egypt sometime around 1665 BC. If we then add some years, Joseph may have been taken to Egypt sometime around 1680 BC (if it is a true story). This means during the Hyksos Dynasty, which reigned from some time in the 18th century BC (they seem to have taken over the power slowly - in contradiction to what Muslims normally say, but here they are excused, because also science believed so until reasonably lately), but did not gain great power until around 1720 BC it seems. The end of their reign is better known and here Muslim sources like to say they reigned until around 1580 BC - the earlier exit, the earlier they can claim the Jews left Egypt. But the two last Hyksos pharaohs were Apopis (ca. 1580 - 1540 BC) and Khamudi (ca. 1540 - 1530 BC). (Muslims like to claim the Hyksos were Arabs. There are no real arguments for that, except they likely were invaders who came via Sinai (perhaps from Syria?), but honor for Arabs is honor for Arabs - - - but that is another story. But we may add that you meet Muslims claiming the name Hyksos derives from a word meaning shepherd rulers - indicating they originally were nomads and thus surely Arabs (Muslims often are good at short-circuited logic and invalid logical jumps - the Hyksos could be Arabs, but far from "surely"). But this is a wrong translation of the original word/name. The correct translation means "foreign rulers" - they after all were not original Egyptians.)

The end of Khamudi's reign - ca. 1530 BC - perhaps is what the Bible means when it says: "Then a new king, who did not know about Joseph, came to power over Egypt". (2. Mos. 1/8).

147 40/34c: "No Messenger will Allah send (to Egypt*) after him (Joseph*)". This is not from the Bible - like so much of the "Biblical" stuff in the Quran. See 40/24b.

Besides this is wrong even according to the Quran, as Joseph lived somewhere around 1800-1600 BC (3 generations after Abraham, who according to science lived around 2ooo-1800 BC), whereas Moses - a prophet to the pharaoh according to the Quran - lived around 1400-1300 BC = after Joseph.

##148 62/2f: “It is He (Allah*) Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a Messenger from among themselves - - - “. Muhammad made much out of his claim that he was from among his own people like all (wrong) other prophets, and used the claimed fact that all prophets were from among their own people - according the Quran, not in reality - as a "proof" or at least an indication for that he was a real prophet. (The claim was wrong, though, as some of the Biblical prophets did not work among their own people - Abraham and Lot both were from what is now Iraq, but worked in Canaan (now Israel), Joseph was from what is now Israel, but worked in Egypt, Moses was a native of Egypt, but worked 40 years in Midian in what likely is now Arabia or Sinai (but perhaps in Sudan), the Jew Jonah worked in Nineveh (the capital of Assyria), to mention some of the Quran's prophets.

149 From 67/5c: The 7 heavens and whom Muhammad met there during his claimed trip to the claimed 7 Heavens:

  1. 7.Gharibya, Abraham.
  2. 6.Rafqa, Moses.
  3. 5.Ratqa, Aaron, brother of Moses.
  4. 4.Arqlun, Idris (= Enoch or Elijah or somebody else - Islam does not know).
  5. 3.Aun, Joseph son of Jacob.
  6. 2.Faydum, Jesus* and John the Baptist.
  7. 1.Birqi, Adam.

148 + 4740 = 4888 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).


 

144.   JOSEPH'S BROTHERS

Benjamin was Joseph's only full brother - both sons of Rachel, Jacob's favorite wife. The other 10 had different mothers (Rachel's sister, Leah, was the mother of Reuben, Simon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulon - Bilha (slave of Rachel) of Dan and Naphtali - Zilpah (slave of Leah) of Gad and Asher. (1. Mos. 35/23-26.))

The Bible - and the Quran - does not paint a too good picture of Joseph's half brothers. Benjamin seems to either be of better quality or too young to count, at least when the story starts.

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001 12/5a: "Said (the father (Jacob*)): 'My dear little son (Joseph by then was 17 - 1. Mos. 37/2)! Relate not thy vision (dream in the Bible - see 12/4b just above*) to thy brothers - - -". According to the Bible Joseph first told his brothers, and then his father only afterwards (1. Mos. 37/9 and 1. Mos. 37/6-7, + 1. Mos. 37/10). Also a time anomaly.

002 12/7b: "Verily, in Joseph and his brethren are Signs (or Symbols) for Seekers (after Truth)". But what does it symbolize if the god was Yahweh like the Bible says, and not Allah?

003 12/7c: "- - - Joseph and his brethren - - -". Benjamin was Joseph's only full brother - both sons of Rachel, Jacob's favorite wife. The other 10 had different mothers (Rachel's sister, Leah, was the mother of Reuben, Simon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulon - Bilha (slave of Rachel) of Dan and Naphtali - Zilpah (slave of Leah) of Gad and Asher. (1. Mos. 35/23-26.)) Also a time anomaly.

004 12/7-18: The main story about Joseph and his brothers is like in the Bible, but not the details. This actually is the case for the entire story about Joseph. (From where did Muhammad get these new details which partly even contradict the Bible? As the Quran is not from a god, also these details are not from a god. Then there remain the alternatives; dark forces, illness, old tales, or making up things.)

005 12/8b: "They (Joseph's brothers - here except Benjamin*) said: "Truly Joseph and his brother (Benjamin*) are loved more by our father (Jacob*) - - -". How could this end up in the claimed "Mother Book" (of which the Quran is a copy according to Muhammad) billions of years before it was said or happened? One more of the many texts or quotes in the Quran which could not have been reliably written into the claimed "Mother Book" (13/39b, 43/4b+c, 85/21-22) in Heaven (of which the Quran is claimed to be a copy) eons ago, unless predestination was and is 100% like the Quran claims many places (if you look, you will find more cases than we mention - we only mention some of the obvious ones). If man has free will - even partly only (an expression some Muslims use to flee from the problem full predestination contra free will for man (and also contra that there is no meaning in praying to Allah for help, if everything already is predestined in accordance with a plan "nobody and nothing can change" - a problem which Muslims seldom mention), and an expression no Muslim we have met has ever defined) - and can change his mind, full and reliable clairvoyance about the future, not to mention the distant future, is impossible even for a god, as the man always could/can change his mind or his words once more, in spite of Islam's claims. There are at least 5 reasons - at least 3 of them unavoidable - for this:

  1. When something is changed, automatically the future is changed.
  2. The laws of chaos will be at work and change things, if even a tiny part is made different. And multiply even a tiny change with some billion people through the centuries, and many and also big things will be changed.
  3. The displacement of a happening - f.x. the death of a warrior in battle - of only one yard or one minute may or even will change the future forever (that yard or minute f.x. may mean that the warrior killed - or not killed - an opponent). The laws of chaos and the "Butterfly Effect" and the "Domino Effect" kick in.

  4. The so-called "Butterfly Effect"; "a butterfly flapping its wing in Brazil may cause a storm in China later on" or "a small bump may overturn a big load".
  5. The so-called "Domino Effect": Any change will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change - - - and so on forever. Also each cause may cause one or more or many changes. And: The Butterfly Effect only may happen, whereas the Domino Effect is unavoidable and inexorable - a main reason why if you in a battle is killed 5 meters from or 5 minutes later than where and when Allah has predestined - not to mention if you die when tilling your fields 50 miles off - unavoidably the entire future of the world is changed. Perhaps not much changed, but like said; multiply it with many billion people through the centuries, and the world is totally changed. And full clairvoyance of course totally impossible - except in occultism, mysticism, made up legends, and in fairy tales.

This that Allah predestines everything like the Quran claims and states many places, is an essential point, because besides totally removing the free will of man (in spite of the Quran's claims of such free will, or some Muslims' adjusted "partly free will for man" - to adjust the meanings where the texts in the Quran are wrong, is typical for Islam and its Muslims) - it also removes the moral behind Allah's punishing (and rewarding) persons for what they say and do - Allah cannot reward or punish people for things he himself has forced them to say or do, and still expect to be believed when he (Muhammad?) claims to be a good or benevolent or moral or just god. Also see 2/51b and 3/24a above.

And as mentioned above, full predestination also makes prayers to Allah meaningless, as everything already is predestined according to Allah's Plan - a Plan which no prayer ("nobody and nothing") can change.

006 12/8c: "Joseph and his brother - - -." This refers to Benjamin, Joseph's only full brother and the youngest one of Jacob's sons. They were the 2 sons of Rachel - Jacob's favorite wife.

007 12/9a: "Slay ye (Joseph's half brothers*) Joseph or cast him out to some (unknown) land - - -". See 12/8b above.

008 12/10a: "Said one of them (Joseph's half-brothers*): 'Slay not Joseph - - -". According to the Bible this was Reuben - who wanted to help him (1. Mos. 37/21-22). (The Quran often is short on fact details).

009 12/10a: "Said one of them (Joseph's half-brothers*): 'Slay not Joseph - - -". According to the Bible this was Reuben - who wanted to help him (1. Mos. 37/21-22). (The Quran often is short on fact details).

010 12/10b: "Said one of them: (Joseph's half-brothers*): 'Slay not Joseph - - -". See 12/8b above.

011 12/11b: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: 'O our father (Jacob*)! - - -". See 12/8b above.

012 12/11-12: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: 'O our father (Jacob*)! Why dost you not trust us with Joseph - seeing we are indeed his well-wishers? Send him with us tomorrow - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which tells Jacob - not understanding how much his other sons disliked Joseph - sent Joseph to check if everything was ok with his brothers and the animals. (1. Mos. 37/13-14). Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

013 12/12b: "Send him (Joseph*) with us (his half-brothers*) tomorrow - - -". See 12/8b above.

014 12/13b: "(Jacob) said: 'It really saddens me that ye (Joseph's half-brothers*) should take him (Joseph*) away". See 12/8b above.

015 12/14b: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: 'If the wolf - - -'". See 12/8b above.

016 12/15a: "So they (Joseph's half-brothers*) took him (Joseph*) away - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, according to which Jacob sent him alone to find his brothers - see 12/11-12 above. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

017 12/15c: "So they (Joseph's half-brothers* took him (Joseph*) away - - -". See 12/8b above.

018 12/16b: "Then they (Joseph's half-brothers*) came to their father in the early part of the night - - -". See 12/8b above.

019 12/16c: "Then they (Joseph's half-brothers*) came to their father in the early part of the night weeping". You have to be a good actor to fake weeping - and a top one to fake tears (normally one need chemicals, f.x. onion juice, to be able to fake tears). 10 men out of a group of 10 that good actors? Statistically impossible.

020 12/17b: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: "O our father (Jacob*)! We went racing - - -". See 12/8b above.

021 12/18a: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) stained his (Joseph's*) shirt with false blood". See 12/8b above.

######022 12/20aa: "- - - dirhams - - -". These silver coins did not exist at that time - the first ones were minted some 2500 years later. Worse: They did not exist at the time of Muhammad, too, and thus this word cannot have been used by Muhammad when he dictated this surah (at the time of Muhammad time the Arabs mainly used the Greek drachme. The first dirhams were copies of Persian coins where the words "In the name of Allah" were added, and made under caliph Utman. The first "real" dirhams were made under Abdalmalik in 695 AD. The Persian coins may have been called dirhams - a word derived from drachme - but it is ever so clear that even they did not exist at the time of Joseph some 2ooo+ years earlier.)) ################### THE QURAN IS "MUHAMMAD'S EXACT WORDS DOWN TO THE LAST COMMA", like many Muslims claim? Also see 12/20c below.

023 12/20c: “The brethren (of Joseph*) sold him (Joseph*) for a miserable price – for a few dirham”. Dirham was a small silver coin - but serious here: Dirhams did not exist until some 25oo years later. (The Bible says 20 shekels = ca. 200g silver.(1.Mos. 37/28)). Science tells this was a normal price for a young male slave at that time, not "a miserable price". Well, in verse 19 he was found and concealed, here in 20 he was bought. See 12/19a, 12/19-20, and 12/20aa above.

(In Arabia at the time of Muhammad one used Greek drachms. The first dirhams were copies of Persian coins where the words "In the name of Allah" were added, and made under caliph Utman. The first "real" dirhams were made under Abdalmalik in 695 AD. The Persian coins may have been called dirhams - a word derived from drachme - but it is ever so clear that even they did not exist at the time of Joseph some 2ooo+ years earlier.)024 12/58-68; Everything happened like Joseph had said. And his brothers came to Egypt to buy food. There were some intermezzos because Joseph did not want to tell whom he was, but all the same wanted contact with his family. The main story is like in the Bible, though details vary. Those details either are from legends, etc. or made up ones, as there are no other sources (as the Quran with all its errors is not from a god who could have told it, like Muslims like to claim).

025 12/58a: "Then came Joseph's brethren (to Egypt*): they entered his (Joseph's*) presence - - -". See 12/43b above.

026 12/59a: "- - - when he (Joseph*) had furnished them (his half-brothers*) - - -". Time anomalies.

027 12/60a: "Now if ye (Joseph's half brothers*) bring him not to me, ye shall have no measure (of corn) from me (Joseph*), nor shall ye (even) come near me". In the Bible the treat is death penalty (1. Mos. 42/20).

028 12/61b: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: 'We shall certainly - - -". See 12/43b above.

029 12/62b: "- - - so that they (Joseph’s brothers) should know it only when they returned to their people - - -". According to the Bible it was discovered already the first night after the departure (1. Mos. 42/27).

030 12/63b: "- - - they (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: "O our father (Jacob*) - - -". These words are not from the Bible.

031 12/65a: "Then when they (Joseph's half-brothers*) opened their baggage (back home*), they found their stock-in-trade had been returned to them". See 12/62b above.

032 12/65b: "- - - when they (Joseph's half-brothers*) - - -". time anomaly.

033 12/65c: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) said: 'O our father (Jacob*)! - - -". See 12/43b above.

034 12/65d: "What more can we (Joseph's family in Canaan*) desire? This our stock-in-trade has been returned to us: so we shall get (more) food for our family - - -". To react in this way to the mystery, they had to have simple minds and brains. In the Bible the reaction is entirely different and more logical - at least for reasonably intelligent and not too primitive brains (1. Mos. 42/28 and 42/35).

035 12/66c: "They (Joseph's half-brothers*) swore their solemn oath - - -". See 12/43b above.

036 12/68b: "- - - when they (Joseph's half-brothers) entered in the manner their father (Jacob*) had enjoined - - -". See 12/43b above.

037 12/69b: "When they (Joseph's half-brothers*) came into Joseph's presence - - -". See 12/43b above.

038 12/71b: "They (Joseph's half-brothers and brother*) said, turning towards them (their followers*): 'What is it you miss?". See 12/43b above.

039 12/73b: "(The brothers) said: 'By Allah! Well ye know - - -". See 12/43b above.

040 12/74-75: "'What then shall be the penalty of this, if ye are (proved) to have lied?' They said: 'The penalty should be that he in whose saddlebag it is found, should be held (as bondsman) - - -". The Bible tells something else - 1. Mos. 44/9 (though the Egyptian softens it in 44/10).

041 12/75b: "They (the brothers?*) said: The penalty should be - - -". See 12/43b above.

042 12/75c: (A70 – in 2008 edition A74): ”They said: ’The penalty should be - - -.” But who said this? If it was the Egyptians, that was the law one had to follow. If it was Joseph’s brothers, it was an offer to the Egyptians, but not a consequence of a law one had to obey. The Quran does not give a clue – and some Muslim scholars guess this, others that. Would an omniscient god use a language that so often is unclear, has double or even multiple meanings, and that so frequently demands guesswork? – at least anyone who use the often unclear language in the Quran as a proof for a god, is far out in the wilderness.

043 12/76g: "He (Joseph*) could not take his brother (Benjamin*) by the law of the king - - -". This is rubbish to use polite words. One thing is that Joseph was not after his brother Benjamin - Benjamin had not wronged him. He was after his half-brothers - to frighten them (hardly any more). But the main point is that in a full dictatorship like the old Egypt, the king/pharaoh AND his highest officers could - and can - do almost what they wanted, included detain a man or more. At most they had to find an excuse. F.x. Joseph could use the excuse he according to the Bible used to hold back in prison his half-brother Simeon from the first trip (1. Mos. 42/12-24). This storey is told by someone who did not know what he was talking about, or someone who did not have a more creative mind - - - and to believe it, also the listeners had to be little bright or little knowledgeable.

044 12/78b: "They (the brothers*) said: 'O exalted one! - - -". See 12/43b above.

045 12/80c: "The leader among them (the brothers*) - - -". Like so many low quality books, the Quran often is short on real and controllable facts - like in this story f.x. the names of the brothers. (Shortage on controllable facts is typical for low quality literature). Their leader likely was Reuben - the oldest one and the same one who according to the Bible (like here not named in the Quran) tried to save Joseph originally.

046 12/83a: "Jacob said - - -". According to the Bible the brothers made 2 trips to Egypt before Jacob emigrated there. In the Quran there seems to be 3 trips: 1. trip arrives in 12/58, home 12/63. 2. trip arrives in 12/69, home in 12/83 to tell Jacob that Benjamin was a thief. 3. trip arrives in 12/88, home in 12/96-97. Contradiction and not a small one really, as the whole story gets a mix-up.

047 12/85b: "They (the brothers*) said: 'By Allah! - - -". See 12/80b above.

048 12/85c: The brothers swear "by Allah". But according to the Bible the involved god was Yahweh, not Allah.

049 12/87a: Jacob said: “O my sons! Go ye (to Egypt*) and enquire about Joseph and his brother - - -". Jacob stayed at home (in Canaan), and his sons vent to Egypt (the 3. trip). But the fact (both according to the Bible and to the Quran) that Jacob stayed at home, is contradicted by:

  1. 00a 12/94-95: “When the Caravan left (Egypt), their father said: ‘I do indeed scent the presence of Joseph: nay, think me not a dotard’. They (his sons*) said: ‘By Allah! Truly thou art in thine old wandering mind.’”

How could Jacob smell the scent and how could he talk to his sons when they were hundreds of kilometers away?

050 12/87b: Jacob said: “O my sons! Go ye (to Egypt*) and enquire about Joseph and his brother - - -". It is clear from some places in the Quran that Jacob did not believe Joseph was dead. But this is contradicted by the Bible, which says he believed he was dead (1. Mos. 42/38). Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

051 12/88b: "- - - when they (the brothers*) came back into (Joseph's) presence, they said: O exalted one! - - -". See 12/80b above.

052 12/88c: "- - - we (the brothers*) have (now) brought but scanty capital - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which says Jacob told them to bring a double amount of silver on their second trip (1. Mos. 43/12-15). Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

053 12/89b: "Know ye (the brothers*) how ye dealt with Joseph and his brother (Benjamin*) - - -". Neither the Quran nor the Bible tells they had done anything to Benjamin.

054 12/90b: "They (the brothers*) said: 'Art thou indeed Joseph?'". See 12/80b above.

055 12/91b: "They (the brothers*) said: 'By Allah! - - -". See 12/80b above.

056 12/91c: "They (the brothers*) said: 'By Allah! - - -". They swear by Allah - expressions starting by "by" in the Quran, normally are oaths. But according to the Bible, their god was Yahweh, not Allah.

322 12/92b: "- - - Allah will forgive you (the brothers*) - - -". According to the Bible, Joseph's god was Yahweh, not Allah.

As for forgiving from Allah: See 2/187d above.

057 12/93b: "Then come ye (the brothers*) (here) to me (Joseph*) together with all your family". Time anomalies.

058 12/94b “When the Caravan left (Egypt), their father (Jacob*) said (to his sons?*) - - -“. But 12/87 says: “O my (Jacob’s*) sons! Go ye (to Egypt*) and enquire about Joseph and his brother - - -“. Jacob simply did not come along to Egypt at that trip – he stayed at home. Thus Jacob could not smell something they or the caravan were carrying. A mistake and a contradiction of the real(?) situation. (This also is clear from 12/96: “When the bearer of the good news came (to Jacob’s home*) - - -.”) Jacob could say nothing to his sons at least until they were back home with him. but the first sentence of 12/95 may refer to his sons.

059 12/95a: “They (Jacob’s sons) said (= answered when the caravan left Egypt! - Jacob was in Canaan, hundreds of miles/km away!*): ‘By Allah (?*)! Truly thou art in thine old wandering mind.’” See 12/94 above.

060 12/97b: "They (the brothers*) said: 'O our father! - - -'". See 12/80b above.

58 + 4888 = 4946 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).


 

145.   JOSHUA BEN NUN - SPY FOR MOSES AND LEADER OF THE JEWS AFTER MOSES' DEATH

Joshua ben Nun - Joshua son of Nun - is not named in the Quran.

Joshua according to the Bible was one of the 12 spies Moses sent into Canaan - now very roughly Israel. He later became the leader of the Jews after Moses died, and he then led the conquest of Canaan. (The "Joshua" in "Joshua led the battle of Jericho" is Joshua ben Nun.)

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#001 5/23b: “- - - two (of Moses’ Jews*) on whom Allah hath - - -“. Note how often the Quran is vague on details - f.x. names. Muhammad simply did not know, and thus he simply found a name (perhaps from Arab legends?) - like for the father of Abraham (Azar instead of Terah) or the first Jewish king (Talut instead of Saul), or he used vague words like here. In just this case the Bible simply tells that Joshua ben Nun and Caleb ben Jephunneh (4. Mos. 14/6) - both later leaders - wanted the Jews to enter Canaan at once. (There is no doubt which is the best piece of literature of the Bible and the Quran also in this case).

According to the Bible, what happened was that the spies became frightened from what they met in Canaan. Only Caleb ben Jephunneh and Joshua ben Nun advised to attack (Joshua became the leader after Moses died.)

002 5/24-26: These verses do not give the moral explanation why Moses himself was denied access to Canaan. In the Bible you find it - Moses chickened out together with the others and did not follow Yahweh's order and Joshua's and Caleb's advice. (4. Mos. ch. 14). In the Quran his wish is different (5/25), which makes the Quran lose the moral reason for punishing him.

003 28/43b: “We (Allah*) revealed to Moses the Book (wrong - the books of Moses were written centuries later according to science*) after We had destroyed the earlier generations - - -”. More generations between Noah and Moses killed off - Allah was a far keener worker than Yahweh, at least in the killing business. But which generations? (The Bible tells the Jews did not enter their promised land until the generation who had lived in Egypt had died off - 40 years later under Joshua. But if this is what is meant, there is a difference between "died off naturally" and "destroyed".

004 73/20f: "- - - fighting in Allah's cause - - -". One of the at least 200% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Even in the centuries when the Jews fought wars - mainly (not exclusively, but mainly) from Joshua around 1195 BC and some centuries on - it was to establish and later defend a country for the Jews, NOT for the sake of the god. And to try to compare it with NT, is a waste of time. "Islam, the Religion of Peace" - is it a slogan based on al-Taqiyya (the lawful lie) or an unintended black joke?

4 + 4946 = 4950 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).


 

146.   JUDAH - SON OF JACOB

Judah was the 4. son Abraham had with Leah. Judah became the forefather of the Judah tribe, which settled around Jerusalem, and when the Jews were split in 2 kingdoms after the death of King Solomon, the Judah and the Benjamin tribes made up the Judah kingdom - the southern kingdom. The other 10 tribes made up the northern kingdom, Israel.

The name "Jew" derives from the name "Judah". The man Judah is not named in the Quran.

The great kings David and Solomon both were from the Judah tribe, the same were both Mary and Joseph - parents of Jesus - and thus also Jesus.

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001 2/140a: "Or do you say that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the tribes were Jews - - -". As the word "Jew" did not exist at that time (it derives from the name of one of the sons of Jacob and the tribe he founded, the Judah tribe), technically the Quran may be right in this "leading - or rhetoric - question" . But using the wider and quite normal definition of the word: Jews = people belonging to the Jewish religion, there is little doubt that according to the Bible they all were Jews - even Ishmael (but he is outside Yahweh's line, as that one goes via Isaac (his brother) and Jacob (1. Mos. 21/12)), if he lived and believed like his father (like Islam claims he did). It must in case be a bitter truth for Arabs to know they are claiming (as usual no proofs) to be descendants from a Jew(!) (But in its rhetoric way the Quran here contradicts the Bible). For the record: The name "Christians" is even much younger than the word "Jew" - it of course derives from "Christos", the Greek version of "Messiah" = the anointed one. It was coined some decades into "our time". See 2/140b just below.

002 3/44a: "This (Mary serving in the Temple under Zachariah and later her receiving the message about a child*)is part of the tidings of things unseen, which We (Allah*) reveal unto thee (Muhammad*) by inspiration - - -". Wrong. It is neither from inspiration, nor from the Bible, but from old apocryphal - made up - scriptures. It is even more wrong, as according to Mosaic - Jewish - law, only men could serve in the temple. And even some more: Only male members of the Levi tribe could serve in the Temple, whereas Mary was a woman and a descendant of David, and thus from the Judah tribe. Muslim scholars knew and know this (f.x. A. Yusuf Ali: "The Meaning of the Holy Quran", comment 378: "The female child (Mary*) could not be devoted to Temple service under the Mosaic (Jewish*) law - - -" (the rest of the quote we omit - it is speculative and unscientific to say the least of it, like sometimes in Islamic literature), and that only Levites could be priests, etc. is very clear from many places in the Bible), but never mention to Muslim congregations. Honesty. Also see 3/37a-b-c above.

003 3/67a: “Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian - - -“. He definitely was no Christian, as he lived – if he ever lived - some 1800 – 2000 years too early. But it may be correct to call the forefather of all Jews a Jew. (We know the word did not exist at that time, but it is normal to use the word also for the people who later got the name Jews. The word "Jew" is made from "Judah" - the name of one of the sons (no. 4 according to the Bible - 1. Mos. 29/35) of the Jewish patriarch Jacob - grandson of Abraham. His tribe much later settled south of and round Jerusalem, and when the nation was split after the death of Solomon, they became the main tribe in the country of Judah - hence Judes or Jews - whereas the parts further north became the country of Israel, which originally was a name the patriarch Jacob got from Yahweh, according to the Bible (1. Mos. 32/28).)

004 From 7/157e:

Micah 5/3: "- - - the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites - - -". The rest of the Jews returning to join the Israelites/Jews. Micah 5/2-5 normally is reckoned to be a foretelling about Jesus. Jesus was a Jew and the Israelites were Jews. (The word Jew really derives from Judah - one of the 12 Jewish tribes - but it is normal to use it for all believers in the Mosaic religion).

005 7/160a: “We divided them (the people of Moses*) into twelve Tribes or nations.” Wrong: They consisted of 12 brothers (the 12 sons of Jacob), then 12 families, then 12 tribes already since after Jacob (some 430 years earlier according to the Bible). And even this is wrong, because Joseph founded 2 tribes: Manasseh and Ephraim (though often called half-tribes). Israel thus consisted of 11 tribes and 2 half-tribes. When the number 12 often is used, the reason may as well be the fact that the Levi tribe was split up and lived together with the other tribes as priests, or that Manasseh and Ephraim were half-tribes and lumped together. (Jesus by the way was from the Judah tribe.)

006 12/7c: "- - - Joseph and his brethren - - -". Benjamin was Joseph's only full brother - both sons of Rachel, Jacob's favorite wife. The other 10 had different mothers (Rachel's sister, Leah, was the mother of Reuben, Simon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulon - Bilha (slave of Rachel) of Dan and Naphtali - Zilpah (slave of Leah) of Gad and Asher. (1. Mos. 35/23-26.)) Also a time anomaly.

##007 19/16c: "- - - she (Mary*) withdrew (just before her message*) from her family to a place in the East (where she got her message*) - - -." Here Muslims have an interesting theory: Remember that Muhammad and the Quran say her mother dedicated her to service in the Temple (in Jerusalem). Because of this the "East" mentioned here, must be "a private eastern chamber, perhaps in the Temple".

####What we have never heard any Muslim mention - even though it is such a well known fact that at least all mullahs, imams, Ayatollahs, and whatever + all scholars, have to know it (also because it is quite similar in Islam) - is that no women served in the Temple. Only men - and only men of the Levi tribe - served there (Mary was from the Judah tribe). No Muslim ever mentions these facts, neither in this connection, nor connected to the claim that her mother dedicated her to service in the Temple.

A brutal mistake in the Quran too difficult to face?

*008 19/18c: “- - - I (Mary, mother of Jesus*) seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah”. It is highly unlikely that a Jew - and especially one working in Yahweh's temple (though this is another piece of contradiction in the Quran to the Bible and to historical facts, as she lived in Nazareth according to the Bible, days away from Jerusalem (Luke 1/26-27) - should seek refuge from a then highly polytheistic god from another country. As one see from what happened to Jesus, the monotheism and Yahweh were strong in Israel at that time. If the Quran had been telling the truth when it tells that Mary was working in the Temple, it is absolutely impossible - she had got into serious troubles if she addressed any other god than Yahweh (but then the Quran most likely is wrong also on this point - We have found nothing about Mary working in the Temple in the Bible or any other source, and if it had been true, most or all Christian sources had mentioned it, as it would mean one more connection between Jesus and Yahweh. (Actually it is incorrect that she worked in the Temple. This legend is taken from the apocryphal - made up - “’proto gospel’ after Jacob” - - - but Muslims all the same tell that the differences between the Quran and the Bible is because the bad non-Muslims have falsified the latter one – not because Muhammad ever so often used twisted fairy tales as basis for stories in the Quran.) Our Muslim sources also do not mention if there exists any other reliable source for this story in the Quran - which Islam frequently does not do when they have no sources, only statements built on nothing or, like here, on what legends and stories and fairy tales the story-tellers told in long evenings. Her work in the Temple simply is a fairy tale shined up and used like a true story in the Quran (this even more so as out sources tell that all workers in the Temple were men, and from the Levi tribe - Mary was from the Judah tribe) - by Allah or by Muhammad, and presumably sent down from Allah and copy from the Mother Book in Heaven, a book perhaps made by Allah, but most likely - according to Islam - never made, but existed since eternity (impossible as angels are speaking at least one place in the book - it must be made after the first angels were created. Not to mention that Muhammad speaks some 8 places in the book).

One more point: ONLY men worked in the Temple, and only men from the Levi tribe. Mary was a woman and from the Judah (David's) tribe.

You are free to believe it if you want.

009 62/6a: "- - - Judaism - - -". A time anomaly. We may mention that the name derives from the name Judah, one of the 12 sons of the Jewish patriarch Jacob (Jacob was renamed Israel by Yahweh according to the Bible (1.Mos. 32/28)). It became the name of the tribe descending from him, and later the name of the southern country of the Jews (the northern one was called Israel), and finally the name Jews derives from it).

9 + 4950 = 4959 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).


 

147.   JUWAIRIYYA

Daughter of the chief of the Arab Mustaliq tribe. Muhammad attacked and conquered the tribe in 629 AD, and the survivors of the tribe taken prisoners. Muhammad offered her marriage, and it is said she accepted to help her tribe. She was then some 20 years old, and Muhammad around 60. (Muhammad liked his women young.) She was not active after Muhammad's death.

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148.   KAB IBN ASAD

Chief of the Jewish Qurayzah tribe. Executed during the mass murder of the prisoners from Khaybar in 629 AD.

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149.   KAB IBN AL-ASHRAF

Poet in Medina and chief for the Jewish Nadir tribe. He made poems against Muhammad, and Muhammad had him murdered by deceit.

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150.   KETURAH

Abraham's second wife (Not mentioned in the Quran).

1. Mos. 25/1-2 and 1. Chr. 1/32 tells that Abraham took another wife or concubine after Sarah died. Neither she nor her six sons are mentioned later in the Bible, and they are not at all mentioned in the Quran (as Abraham was/is so central in Islam, the likely reason is that Muhammad did not know about them).

There is one exception, though: The Midianites. They may be descendants of Keturah's 4. son, Midian, instead of being people from Midian or - claimed by Islam - Madyan.

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001 From 7/157e: (In 1. Mos. 16/12 Yahweh tells Abraham that his son Ishmael "will live in hostility towards all his brothers". But here the word is literally, and also this was said about Ishmael only and not about his descendants. Ishmael had the brothers Isaac (mother: Sarah), and Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah (mother: Keturah, whom Abraham married after Sarah died - 1. Mos. 25/1-2). In 1. Mos. 25/5 it is said that the sons of Keturah were "sent to the land of the east" which means Jordan or further east (Arabia is to the south and south east), and they do not appear in later books of the Bible (except that the Midianites may - may - be the descendants of Midian, not persons from a place named Midian)).

002 From 11/84d: Then finally there is the last of the 3 specific Arab claimed prophets, Shu’ayb. He in the Quran is connected to Madyan and to "the People of the Wood". This is somewhat complicated. For one thing it is unclear if "the Midianites" and "the People of the Wood" were the same or two different people. For another it is unclear where the Bible's Midian was situated. Originally we like many others believed the Bible's Midian and the Quran's Madyan were the same place - in the north-west of the Arab peninsula. But further studies have made us doubt this. There are two possible explanations for the Bible's Midian: Moses' Midian may have been to the east of Egypt or to the south of that country - it is not specified in the Bible whether Moses went east or south. If he went south (= along the Nile valley where it was easy to find a living), his Midian was in Sudan. If he went east, it was somewhere east of Egypt. And then the question is: Was the Bible's Midian just the name of a place somewhere, or did it refer to the land of the Midianites (Midian was the 4. of Abraham's 6 sons with his second wife, Keturah - 1. Mos. 25/2). If it was just a geographical name it may have been anywhere - f.x. in Madyan in Arabia. But if it referred to "the land of the Midianites", it was on the Sinai peninsula. If Moses found a Midian to the East of Egypt, this last explanation is the likely one for 2 reasons: For one thing this Midian was on his way east and much closer than Madyan in Arabia, and for another: The Madyanites were related to the Jews and a natural place for a fleeing Jew to settle. And what is absolutely sure is that as the Thamud according to history seems to have existed from perhaps 800 or more BG to around 600-400 BC, and the Madyanites/Midianites of the Quran lived later according to that book, it is totally impossible that Shu'ayb could be identical to Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, like many Muslims claim - Jethro lived around 1350 BC.

003 15/54b: "Do you give me (Abraham*) the glad tiding that old age has seized me?" Abraham is skeptical to the message because of his age (he was not older, though, than he later got 6 sons with a new wife, Keturah, something the Quran does not mention (1. Mos. 25/1-2)).

004 17/59j: Just for the record: The stories about the 'Ad, Thamud, Midianite (descendants of Abraham’s 4. son with Keturah - 1. Mos. 25/2 - or people from Midian (Madyan?)), Rocky Tract, etc. tribes and the prophets Hud, Salih, and Shu'ayb are not from the Bible. That is to say, Midianites may be mentioned, as descendants from one of Abraham's 6 sons with Keturah, Midian (1. Mos. 24/1-2).

#005 19/49b: "- - - We (Allah*) bestowed on him (Abraham*) Isaac and Jacob - - -". Abraham got the son Isaac with his wife Sarah. It is strange that in 614 - 615 AD the Quran does not mention his son with Sarah's slave Hagar - Ishmael. Had Muhammad not yet got the idea of claiming ancestry from Abraham (via Ishmael?) - surah 19 is from 614-615 AD = early in Muhammad's preaching. We may also mention that 1. Mos. 25/1-2 and also 1. Chron. 1/32 says that Abraham took another wife/concubine and had 6 sons with her: "The sons born to Keturah, Abraham's concubine: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah". Not mentioned in the Quran. Had Muhammad claimed ancestry via one of these, his claim had been stronger, because little is said about where they ended. But most likely he never knew about these sons of Abraham. (To claim to be descendants via an Ishmael living in Mecca, is hopeless if the stories in the Bible are true - and at the time when they were written down, there was no reason for the Jews not to be honest about this - because the place where it is told Abraham left Hagar according to the Bible, is some 1200 km from the dry, empty desert valley where Mecca later came (1. Mos. 20/14), and the place it tells Ishmael settled is even a little further off (1. Mos. 25/18). And the track form those places to the nowhere, empty, narrow desert valley of later Mecca was for large parts through harsh and forbidding hot desert - - - and without any attractions giving the least reason to go there.

006 21/60c: "- - - Abraham - - -". We should remind you that according to the Bible his name at this time was Abram (which means "Exalted Father" - even though he had no children). He did not get the name Abraham until 99 years old (1. Mos. 17/5) in Canaan - now roughly central Israel. (Abraham means "Father of Many" - he got 8 sons, Ishmael with Hagar (Sarah's slave woman), Isaac with Sarah, and then 6 with his second wife, Keturah (1. Mos.25/1-2), who are not mentioned in the Quran).

007 21/72b: "- - - (a grandson) - - -". This seems to be inserted by the translator. In that case in the original Arab text the sentence may easily be understood like Abraham got two sons: Isaac and Jacob. Also beware that according to the Bible "Abraham took another wife (after Sarah's death*), whose name was Keturah. She bore him the sons Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shush". (1. Mos. 25/1-2). This - and these sons - is not mentioned in the Quran.

008 22/44a: "- - - the Madyan People - - -". Similar to the 'Ad and Thamud ones - see 22/42e above - except one knows there lived people in Madyan (not necessarily like described by Muhammad, though). It is unlikely, that the Bible's Midian and the Quran's Madyan is the same - the Bible's Midian instead may have been in Sudan, or most likely in Sinai.

An extra point here is that Midianites did not necessarily mean men from Midian. They could as well be descendants of Abraham's 4. son with Keturah, Midian (1. Mos. 25/2)

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This work was upload with assistance of M. A. Khan, editor of islam-watch.org and the author of "Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism, and Slavery".