Humans, Other Beings in/Relevant to the Quran, Part 14
01 Jan 2016
91. EVIL SPIRITS
Spirits is mainly something you find in religions. They are never documented by science. It is overwhelmingly likely spirits are superstition. They are a clear part of Islam and in the Quran. If it is true that the belief in spirits is superstition, which it most likely is, the Quran's "information" about this tells something about the knowledge and intelligence of the claimed god Allah.
(In the Bible - and in the Quran - you find "the Holy Spirit". If it exists, it is a special case. Islam - but not the Quran - claims that the Holy Spirit = the arch angel Gabriel. There is no real argument of fact behind this claim - the only point behind the claim is that according to the Quran both the Holy Spirit and Gabriel brought messages to Earth. According to the Bible the Holy Spirit is something more - and more special - than even an arch angel.)
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##001 6/97a: “It is He (Allah*) Who maketh the stars (as beacons) for you - - -”, - and fastened to the lowest heaven, as we know from other places in the Quran - and also used as shooting stars to chase away bad spirits, according to the same book. That the stars are lights and weapons fastened to the lowest heavens (37/6-7, 41/12) - below the moon according to the astronomy of that time - destroys the credibility of Muhammad concerning this unproved statement about a natural phenomenon like the stars. Even worse: It is not just a statement; it is a sign for Allah - invalid like all the others. A small remark: Use of false proofs often is the hallmark of cheats and deceivers.
More essential just here: That the mighty and distant stars are made just for being beacons for tiny beings on a far-away minor planet is unlikely to a very high power.
002 6/97b: “It is He (Allah*) Who maketh the stars (as beacons) for you that ye may guide yourself, with their help, through the dark spaces of land and sea: We detail Our Signs for people who know”. Well, but where is the proof for that Allah had anything to do with the making of the stars at all? The Quran even flagrantly proves that Allah/Muhammad have not the faintest idea neither of what the stars are nor where they are (according to the Quran they are points of fire that even can be used for weapons against bad spirits, fastened to the nonexistent lowest of 7 material heavens (37/6-7, 41/12) - which means that according to the astronomy of that time they are situated somewhere between the Earth and our moon (as the moon was fastened to another heaven, that one could not be the lowest one + it is said it is between the heavens)). Some “sign” and some "detailed explanation"!
003 15/17a: “- - - We (Allah*) have guarded them (the Zodiacal Signs*) from every evil spirit accursed: - - -” According to the Quran, the stars – included the Zodiacal signs – are fastened to the lowermost of 7 heavens (material ones – they have to be if the stars can be fastened to one of them). But jinns/bad spirits wanted to spy on the heavens, and had to be chased away by stars used as shooting stars. And then the Zodiacal signs were guarded at the same time. According to science this is utter nonsense to at least the fifth power. Laughable. Any god had known – even baby ones – but Muhammad not. Then who made the Quran with all its mistaken facts, etc.?
###004 15/17b: “- - - We (Allah*) have guarded them (the Zodiacal Signs*) from every evil spirit accursed: - - -”. When you know a little about astronomy, this is such a nice claim that we like to look at it. Incredible that anyone with a measurable IQ is able to believe such a text.
##005 15/18a: “But any (jinn/bad spirit*) that gains a hearing by stealth (by spying on the heavens*) - - -". According to the Quran, jinns and bad spirits often try to spy on what is going on in the Heavens, by trying to listen to what is said. (If you think this is stuff from a fairy tale, do not blame us - a lot of the stuff in the Quran is from fairy tales, legends, etc.).
##006 15/18b: “But any (jinn/bad spirit*) that gains a hearing by stealth (by spying on the heavens*), is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).” According to the Quran, the stars are fastened to the lowest of 7 material heavens (see 15/17a above and 37/6-7 and 41/12 below). The stars are lights and decoration, but are also used for shooting stars for weapons to chase away jinns and bad spirits. (YA comment 1954: "A shooting star appears to be meant".) Muhammad did not know that the mass of a star is somewhere in the range of 1 shooting star x 10 to the 20. or more power and utterly impossible to use as a shooting star in our atmosphere – for the reason of its glaring light, for the reason of heat, for the reason of irradiation, for the reason of gravity, for the reason of sheer size, etc. As said in 15/17a above: Scientific nonsense and insanity to at least the 5. power. No god uttered this fairy tale stuff – but Muhammad did not know any better. Then who made the Quran?
007 17/47b: "- - - the wicked say, "Ye (Muslims*) follow none other than a man bewitched - - -". May be they were not wicked, but wise; in the old days people with mental disorders often were believed to be bewitched - invaded by a bad spirit. Modern medical science says there is a strong chance Muhammad had TLE (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy) - an illness which may give exactly the symptoms Muhammad is told to have had.
##008 21/32c: “And We (Allah*) have made the heavens (plural and wrong*) as a canopy well guarded - - -”. Muhammad was unable to see the difference between stars and shooting stars. In the Quran it is told that the shooting stars (mistaken for being ordinary stars) are “arrows” used to chase away bad spirits or jinns (beings “borrowed” from old Arab pagan religion and folklore and unknown to any other “prophet” than Muhammad) wanting to spy on Heaven. Any child today knows the difference between a real star and a shooting star, and also what would happen on and to the Earth if shooting stars were real stars. Even a baby dwarf god had known this - but Muhammad not, as it is modern knowledge. The pertinent or impertinent question is: Who then composed the Quran?
009 23/17a: “And We (Allah*) have made, above you, seven tracts (= seven heavens*) - - -”. Wrong. There are no seven (material) heavens. All the same you find these claims about 7 heavens/firmaments/tracts in 2/29d+e, 17/44a, 23/17a, 23/86a, 41/12a+b, 65/12a, 67/3a+b and 71/15a+b - all together the Quran mentions "heavens" in plural at least 199 times; there is no doubt the Quran means there are 7 heavens (and as the stars are fastened to the lowermost of them - fx.67/5a - they have to be material ones - if not the stars could not be fastened to it). In 67/3 you also are told they are places one above the other, which means they of course are built successively higher above the Earth - which also is clear from most places in the Quran where the place of the heavens are indicated. Some modern Muslims try to place the heavens in space, deep space included. But among others 67/3 prohibits this, as "up" and "down" ("one above the other") has no meaning as part of the real space. Also the "fact" that the stars fastened to the lowest heaven are used for shooting stars (for weapons to chase away spying jinns and bad spirits) also show where the Quran's heavens are claimed to be - shooting stars only are found in the Earth's atmosphere.
By the way: 67/12b also claims there are 7 Earths, and gives their names according to Islam.
010 23/17b; (YA2876): We simply quote: “Thara’iq"; tracts, roads, orbits, or paths in the visible heaven. These seven are clearly marked to our eyes (??*), in the immense space (the Arab word meaning space in modern astronomical meaning - al-Kawn - is not used anywhere in the Quran*) that we see around us. We must go to astronomy to form any plausible theories to these motions. But their simplest observation gives us a sublime view of beauty, order, and grandeur in the universe (see 51/47c). The assurance given in the next clause, that Allah cares for us and all His Creation, calls out attention to Allah’s goodness, which is further illustrated in the subsequent verses.” A lot of words to avoid explaining anything about the 7 material heavens with the stars fastened to the lowest one (37/6-7, 41/12), and with stars used as shooting stars to chase away spying jinns and bad spirits, which is what the Quran in reality is speaking about. Here things are clear, but is made unclear and wrapped up in verbal wool to tuck away wrongs which the Quran clearly states many places - a technique fully ok when promoting or defending the religion, according to Islam (cfr. the rules for al-Taqiyya (the lawful lie), etc.).
*011 26/210-211: “No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation). It would neither suit them - - -“. May be no evil spirits have brought down the Quran. But is definite that no omniscient god has done so – too many mistakes, etc. It also is definite that no good or benevolent god or spirit did it – far too inhuman, full of hate and suppression and blood – not to mention the wretched ethic and moral in the book. All the same it is possible it was not sent down by bad or evil forces (even bad supernatural forces would be too intelligent to make a book with so many mistakes, contradictions, invalid logic, etc., as they had to know they would be found out sooner or later and lose their credibility - though a possibility is that the god demanded a low quality book to permit the Devil to make such a trap - f.x. may be the god wanted it to be possible for humans to understand something was wrong and thus evade the trap) – it simply is possible, and even likely, that it was made by one or more men (all the wrong science and "knowledge" in accordance with the local beliefs in and around Arabia at that time, and a lot more points in that direction). But what is absolutely sure, is that an Islam like the one one finds in the surahs from Medina suits evil spirits and forces very well: Inhumanity, stealing, blood, hate, war. Just ask Muslims what they think about the Mongols attacking them in the east. The religion in Mongolia under and after Djingis Khan basically was quite similar to Islam. When Islam used their war machine and inhumanity in f.x. India and other places, they according to all Muslims were heroes. Then they met Mongols who did just the same to Muslims - - and the Mongols were terrible monsters. But then the southern Mongols became Muslims and continued in the same way like before, but now against non-Muslims - - - and now they were great heroes according to Islam. Ask them if the f.x. remember the name Timur Lenk (Tamerlane).
Islam as described in the surahs from Medina, definitely suits evil forces/spirits.
#012 34/8c: "- - - has a spirit (sized) him (Muhammad*)?" This question was and is more relevant than you should believe, because in the old days when someone lost his mind or turned crazy - more or less - one many places believed he/she had been invaded by a bad spirit. This expression thus means they thought there was something wrong with his brain - - - and modern medical science strongly suspects he had the mental decease TLE (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy) - an illness which can give just such fits and traumas/religious "experiences" like it is told Muhammad got. If this is the case, this is a good partial explanation for why the Quran was made up (the rest easily may be his lust for power, honor and women).
013 34/46c: "- - - your Companion (Muhammad*) is not possessed - - -". Well, mental problems in the old times often were described as being possessed or being invaded by a bad spirit. Modern medical science suspects that Muhammad had a mental illness named TLE (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy). So perhaps that was just what he was according to the old way of saying it: Possessed. Plus he liked power and women and not least riches for "buying"/bribing more followers.
###014 37/6c: “We (Allah*) have indeed decked the lower heaven with - - - stars - - -”. The nature has produced billions of stars - of which man with his naked eyes is able to see 6ooo-7ooo. But in no way he used them to deck a non-existing lower heaven (below the moon according to the astronomy of that time - - - and to the Quran as the moon is "between the heavens") - and neither do nature use the stars as weapons (shooting stars) to chase away evil spirits or jinns like in the Quran, next verse (37/7). Also if the stars - suns - were below the moon, Earth had been pretty hot (in addition to all other nonsense this verse would imply if it had been true, compared to the reality). Is this a proof for that nature knows what it is doing, whereas Muhammad was bluffing?
###015 37/6+7: “We (Allah*) have decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars - (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits.” See first 37/6 just above. Then: The Quran does not know the difference between a star and a shooting star, and tells that the stars are used for shooting stars for chasing away evil spirits that wants to spy or listen to what is said in Heaven. The shooting stars are used as weapons in such cases. It should not be necessary to say that this is wrong at least to the 25th – 30th order = the difference between the mass of a star and of a shooting star - literally trillions and more times bigger than shooting stars, and trillions of times as far off. Also see verse 8 below. That the lowest heaven is guarded, belongs only in fairy tales. Any god had known - then who made the Quran?
016 37/7: "(The stars are*) (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits - - -". Wrong. Other places in the Quran make it clear that the guard means that Allah also uses the stars as shooting stars - weapons to chase away jinns and bad spirits wanting to spy on what is said in Heaven. The difference between a real star of zillions of tonnes, and shooting star of milligrams or a little more, is such that comments really should be unnecessary. And bad spirits spying on heavens which are not there? - the only thing which exists in the height where shooting stars happens, is rarefied air. We simply are back in the fairy tales. Also see 37/8 just below.
017 37/8: "(Stars used as shooting stars are used as weapons against jinns and bad spirits*) (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly (Allah's assembly*) - - -". If anyone are able to believe jinns and bad spirits are cruising or hiding in the heights where the shooting stars happen, to listen to what is said in the 7 heavens which do not exist (in those heights there only is rarefied air) they are fully permitted to believe so. No other comment should be necessary.
Well, we may add that this quote sounds like from a fairy tale. Perhaps with a reason?
018 37/9: "Repulsed - - -". The jinns and the bad spirits are chased away by the stars Allah uses for shooting star. If these verses were unknown, one might guess the writer was the slightly romantic Dane Mr. H. C. Andersen - it would fit his style. (If there is anyone not knowing him: He was a most famous writer of fairy tales.)
019 37/10: "Except such (jinns and bad spirits*) as snatch away something (secrets from Heaven*) by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness (stars used as shooting stars by Allah as weapons to chase away jinns and bad spirits)". If anyone is able to believe jinns, etc. are cruising around or hiding high up in the stratosphere trying to steal secrets from the heavens which do not exist - at least not in the heights where shooting stars happen, they are permitted to do so. Any more comments should be unnecessary - except also see 37/7 and 37/8 above. Wrong unless Islam proves differently.
020 37/36/e: "- - - possessed - - -". Remember here that in the old times one often believed that people with something wrong with their brain, were possessed by an evil spirit. And as Muhammad quite likely had TLE (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy) according to modern medical science, may be they were right - quite likely he was "possessed" by TLE.
021 41/12f: “- - - and (provided it) (the lowest heaven*) with guard”. We know from other places in the Quran, that this “guard” is stars mistaken for shooting stars used against bad spirits and jinns wanting to spy on the heavens. The only place such “information” fits today, is in fairy tales. Who composed the Quran? Contradiction: See 42/12a above.
022 44/14e: "- - - (Muhammad is*) a man possessed!" There is a clear possibility that this claim was correct, as modern medical science suspects he had the mental disease Temporal Lobe Epilepsy - TLE. This mental disorder can give just the kind of religious "experiences" Muhammad claimed. Remember that in the real old days one often believed that a person with a mental disorder, simply was possessed by a bad spirit.
There also is the possibility that he had psychopathic tendencies.
023 52/29c: "- - - nor are you (Muhammad*) one possessed". This may be wrong, as in the old times it was rather common to believe that a person with a mental disorder, was possessed by a bad spirit. And modern medicine strongly suspects Muhammad had TLE (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy) - TLE will explain very much in case.
####024 67/3a: “He (Allah*) Who created the seven heavens one above another - - -”. It is hardly possible to state the Quran’s picture of our sky more accurately and clearly than this. Neither is possible to be much more wrong, especially when we add that according to the Quran the heavens are held up by invisible pillars, that the heavens are made from something material (if not you could build them and not fasten the stars, etc. to them), that the stars are fixed to the lowest heaven (37/6-7, 41/12) with the sun (?) and the moon between the heavens, and that the stars also double as shooting stars to chase away spying Jinns and bad spirits - and everything as said kept up there by invisible pillars resting on Earth.. See 67/5a and 67/5b below. Who composed the Quran - a god or someone not omniscient? Muhammad perhaps? (And 71/15 even confirms “one above the other”).
This is not even fairy tale quality today - even small children know it is wrong.
Who made the Quran?
025 67/5c: "- - - the Evil Ones - - -". Here Jinns and bad spirits.
026 68/2b: "Thou (Muhammad*) art not - - - mad or possessed". Perhaps and perhaps not - modern medical science suspects TLE - Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. TLE fits his symptoms very well and would also explain his religious experiences or perhaps hallucinations. And in the old times they often believed that one who had a mental illness, was possessed by a bad spirit.
027 68/51f: "Surely he (Muhammad*) is possessed!" They may have been right, if he had f.x. TLE (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy) like modern medical science suspects, because at that time one often believed that someone with a mental disease was possessed by a bad spirit. At least they had knowledge and intelligence enough to see that something was wrong.
*028 72/8a: “And we (jinns – a being “borrowed” from pagan Arab religion, legends and fairy tales*) pried into the secrets of heaven - - -". According to this and some other places in the Quran, Jinns and bad spirits lurked around under the (lowest?) heaven and tried to spy on what happened and what was said in the heavens. As the havens (and likely Jinns) do not exist - at least not like described in the Quran - comments give themselves.
*029 72/8b: “And we (jinns*) pried into the secrets of heaven, but we found it filled with stern guides and flaming fires.” The Quran tells that Allah uses the stars like shooting stars – flaming fire – to chase away bad spirits and jinns wanting to spy on heaven. No comments should be necessary to this nonsense. Any god had known the difference between a shooting star, and a real star - even a devil had known. Then who made the Quran?
030 81/22: "And (O people!) your (here Arabs'*) Companion (Muhammad*) is not one possessed - - -". A most open question, as modern medical science suspects he had TLE (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy) - his symptoms are uncannily like those of that illness, included religious illusions. And in the old times persons with mental illnesses were reckoned to be possessed by one or more bad spirit(s).
031 81/25: "Nor is it (the Quran*) the word of an evil spirit accursed". This may be wrong, as it is one of the real possibilities for who made the Quran (it is one of the theories for who is the real maker of the book) - the partly immoral moral code of the Quran, the partly unjust and/or immoral sharia laws, and its rules for blood, murder and war, may indicate a devil or bad spirits as the real maker(s). But even a devil would hardly deliver a book with so many errors, etc. - he had to know he would be found out sooner or later and loose credence. Which leave human creators as the likely creators, as it was no god - not with all those mistakes, etc? Though it is possible it was made by dark forces, if all the mistakes, etc. were a condition for permission from a god to try to lure more to Hell - the mistakes, etc. in case had to be included so as to make it easy for people to see something was wrong and avoid the trap.)
31 + 2551 = 2582 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).
92. EVE - THE WIFE OF ADAM
Eve - the name is from the Bible - is not named in the Quran, but the name Hawwa is sometimes used in Islam.
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001 2/30-35: The story of the creation of Adam and Eve (her name is not mentioned in the Quran, only in the Bible) is roughly like in the Bible, but in nearly all details different from the story in the Bible. Normally the Bible would be reckoned to be a more reliable source, partly because it is much older and thus nearer to what may be happened, partly because it is built on strong traditions, whereas the Quran only builds on Muhammad's words - and the historical Muhammad in addition was not a most reliable man, as we have mentioned other places. But in this case it is likely both are wrong - Adam and Eve most likely have never existed, but are just legends (may be borrowed from Persia (via Israel?))
002 2/35: (A2/27): “O Adam, dwell thou and thy wife in this garden - - -.” Exact translation: “the garden”. “There is a considerable difference of opinion among the commentators as to what is the meaning here by ‘garden’: a garden in the earthly sense, or the paradise that awaits the righteous in the life to come, or some special garden in the heavenly regions?” The text is not specific, and the meaning unclear. This unclear text is combined with 2/36 which talks about that Adam had to go down from the Garden of Eden (this name is from the Bible) to indicate something more heavenly - - - and conveniently "forget" that in 2/30 it is unmistakably stated that Adam was to be a "vice regent on earth" - ergo he was placed on Earth, ergo the Garden of Eden had to be on Earth. (Many scientists believe the Garden of Eden - if it existed - lay in the wetlands in what today is southeast Iraq.) There is a little (an understatement) too much of such dishonest "logic" in Muslim "information".
003 2/36aa "Then did Satan make them (Adam and Eve*) slip from the garden (of Eden - likely in the lush and water rich parts of south Iraq*) - - -". Similar to the Bible, though details differ.
004 2/36b: "- - - with enmity between yourselves (humans*)". Contradiction to the Bible. The Bible says enmity between humans and the snake (who was the partner(?) of the devil in making Eve take fruits from the forbidden tree). If Islam claims there only were 2 persons, this means there were enmity between Adam and Eve - no source indicates this - - - and there hardly had been children if the two were enemies.
005 2/37c: "- - - his (Adam's*) Lord (Allah*) turned towards him; for He is Oft-Forgiving". This indicates that Allah forgave him (Eve is forgotten here), which has as a result that Islam do not have the dogma about inherited sin.
As for forgiving from Allah: See 2/187d below. (The same facts and logic go for f.x. punishment, reward, and any other deed which include changes in Allah's predestined and unchangeable Plan.)
006 2/134: "They (the forefathers*) shall reap the fruits of what they did, and ye of what ye do!" Islam does not have the concept of "the inherited sin" - Adam and Eve fell from grace, but all the same were forgiven, according to the Quran.
Another point is that to forgive means for Allah to change his Plan considering you, something which according to the Quran is impossible.
*007 3/59b: “He (Allah*) created him (Adam (and Jesus)*) from dust, - - -”. The Quran tells about many ways man was created - 13 different if you are strict, 5 - 7 if you are less strict. Only 1 can be true, as man (Adam) was created only once. Actually according to science all of them are wrong, as man developed from earlier primates.
Some Muslims take pride in that archaeologists has found that the human race has passed through so-called bottlenecks, and that all now may have one “mother” in common - the archaeological Eve - and one common “father” - the less known archaeological Adam. "Hurray! Here is the PROOF!", you may hear - "here is Eve and Adam!". What not a single of them has ever mentioned as far as we have heard, is the fact that this “Eve” lived some 160ooo to 200ooo (195ooo?) years ago, whereas the corresponding “Adam” lived much later - may be as late as 60ooo - 70ooo (64ooo?) years ago, Eve in Africa, Adam most likely in Asia (perhaps near the Caspian Sea). Not a couple exactly! (And once more; actually the Adam from the Bible and the Quran most likely never existed - man developed from a primate, he was not created into sudden existence). See also 6/2b below.
008 4/1c: “- - - created you from a single person - - -“. Man could not come from a single person, there had to be at least 2 – male and female. But even if there was a couple, that would be too little – the DNA variety would be too small for the “tribe” to be viable (any god had known this - then who made the Quran?). Man simply developed little by little – like the Quran – from earlier primates (as for the archaeological Eve and the archaeological Adam whom science talks about, and whom some Muslims disuse trying to “prove” something: See the chapter: “Some wrong arguments – and their answers” in "1000+ Mistakes in the Quran".)
009 7/18 - 25: The story about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is roughly similar to the one in the Bible - though the Bible is better as literature also here - but details differ, and also many details lack in the Quran compared to in the Bible. There are two marked differences, though: For one thing (not mentioned here) the sin in Eden did not result in the "inherited sin" in Islam like in the Bible. And the other is the quote from 7/24 just below.
##010 7/24: "Get ye (Adam and Eve*) down, with enmity between yourself". May be Islam has comments on this, but we have never seen one. The message is clear: There will be enmity between man and woman. And when you see the status and the treatment of women in Islam, that may well be the case in Islam - with the man as the winner and the woman as the suppressed vanquished loser.
On this point the Bible has another story. In the Bible it was the snake who made Eve pick the forbidden fruit, and because of that Yahweh said there should be enmity between man and snake - and that is quite something different from enmity between man and woman.
A possible explanation for the story in the Quran is that Muhammad did not know the Bible well - this is a well known fact - and misunderstood the story (especially before he came to Medina where there lived many Jews, in 622 AD, he had very superficial knowledge of the Bible, and this surah is from 621 AD).
###011 7/172a: "When thy (mans'*) Lord drew forth (= caused to be born*) from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify - - -". YA1146 here has an interesting comment - we quote: "This passage has led to differences of opinion (because of unclear language*) in interpretation. According to the dominant opinion of commentators, each individual in the posterity of Adam (= after Adam*) had a separate existence from the time of Adam (= he or she in some way existed since the time of Adam*) and a Covenant was taken from all of them, which is binding accordingly on each individual". To use a simpler language: Each and every human being in some way existed at the time of Adam, and when Adam made his claimed covenant with Allah, also all human beings through all times at the same time made a similar covenant with the claimed god - a covenant which thus is binding for each and every human being who have existed or will exist. No comment - except this to us sounds not like religion, but like mysticism or like a fairy tale. And one more fact: At the time of Adam's claimed covenant, only Adam and Eve (her name not mentioned in the Quran), existed. The rest of what is fabulated here just is "ad hoc" speculation - - - or fabulating. You meet mysticism sometimes in the Quran, not only here.
012 7/189: “It is He (Allah*) who created you (man*) from a single person (Adam*) - - -“. Wrong. Adam never existed, as man developed from earlier primates. And even if it had started with Adam and Eve (her name is never mentioned in the Quran), the DNA pool had been too small to make the race viable.
#013 10/19a: “Mankind was but one nation - - -”. Mankind never was but one nation. Perhaps once one tribe or a few small tribes, but never one nation, as some Muslims try to explain - and that in case was some 160ooo - 200ooo years ago (there seems to have been a “bottle neck” when man nearly died out at that time, according to DNA-studies). You also sometimes meet Muslims telling in triumph that science has proved the Quran, because now they have found the prehistoric Eve and the prehistoric Adam - - - without mentioning that the prehistoric so-called “Eve” lived the above mentioned some 160ooo - 200ooo years ago (the number varies some) in Africa, whereas the prehistoric “Adam” lived some 60ooo - 70ooo (64ooo?) years ago only, and not unlikely south of the Caspian Sea in Asia. With “Eve” dead 100ooo years before “Adam” was born - and a long distance off - it is difficult to see how they can be the “parents” of man, and thus prove the Quran. (You meet "scientific" "proofs" of this quality from Muslims and even from Islam (Muslim scholars and leaders) sometimes).
014 20/116a: “Prostrate yourself to Adam”. Wrong, as Adam did never exist - man according to science developed from an earlier primate. We debated with some Muslims some time ago about this, and they triumphantly told us we were wrong, for now science had found that there had been an Eve and an Adam. This is quite true. But what they did not mention, was that this “Eve” lived about 160ooo - 200ooo (195ooo?) years ago in the Rift Valley in East Africa, and represented a so called “bottleneck” - a time when the human race nearly died out - and only Eve had girl children, or the DNA of the other girl children died out later (this result is from tests of mitochondria DNA - mDNA - and mDNA only tells about the female side of the story, as mitochondria only goes from parents to child via the egg cell = from the mother – carrying only the feminine DNA). Then around 60ooo+ (64ooo?) years ago, something happened to Homo Sapiens (may be in the area south of the Caspian Sea). He still was Homo sapiens, but something – science does not know what - happened that started him on the road to technical and other developments. And there was another bottleneck - something similar to what happened to the “archaeological Eve” - happened once more. But this time it is readable in the Y chromosome, which only men – here named Adam - have, and consequently only shows the masculine side. This shows that all men living today, has a common “father” (by archaeologists not by coincidence named “the archaeological Adam” or just “Adam”) - a single man that lived 140ooo (some say 100ooo) years later than Eve. That archaeologists named them Adam and Eve, in a way is quite logical. But they have nothing to do with the Adam and Eve in the Bible or with “Adam and his wife” in the Quran - how could they f.x. be man and wife when they lived 100ooo - 140ooo years apart, and one in Africa, the other may be in Asia? Not to mention essential facts like this when they talk of the archaeological Adam and Eve and use this as a religious proof for creation, we find dishonest. And at least the scholars in Islam – the ones that teach their students and congregations and are interviewed and write and speak in the media – do know this. It is a well known scientific fact among learned people.
015 20/123a: "- - - with enmity one to another - - -". Does it here mean enmity between Adam and Eve? (The name Eve is not mentioned in the Quran, only in the Bible.) - or between the snake and humans? - or - - -? (The Bible says between the snake and humans).
016 39/6c: "- - - then (Allah*) created, of like nature, his (Adam's*) mate (Eve - the name is nowhere given in the Quran, only in the Bible*) - - -". One more never proved claim in the Quran. But see 39/6b just above.
017 49/13a: “- - - We (Allah*) created you (man*) from a single (pair) of male and female - - -”. Adam and Eve never were, according to science. Besides if everything had started with just one pair, the DNA-variety had been too small to make the group viable in the long run = man had died out after some generations. (Actually science says that to have enough DNA variety + have a reasonable safety margin against dangerous illnesses, a group of animals (or humans) should consist of minimum some 2000 members – and spread around some to reduce the impact of contagious illnesses – to be sure to be viable in the long run.) Also see 6/2b, 6/98 – 7/189 – 39/6 Above.
17 + 2582 = 2599 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).
- the Jews leaving Egypt after 430 years, the late period of it mainly as slaves.
The Bible tells that new rulers took over in Egypt, and that these rulers reduced the Jews to slaves. Then Yahweh - still according to the Bible - intervened and sent Moses who led his people out of Egypt. The Bible is very clear on that the Jews stayed in Egypt for 430 years (2. Mos. 12/40-41).
According to f.x. Encyclopedia Britannica Exodus happened around 1335 BC. This in case means during the reign of Pharaoh Ramses II. A few scientist believe it happened a few years later under his son, Merneptah (or Merenptah), but we have seen no scientist believing it happened earlier than under Ramses II.
But we know for sure that Ramses II did not drown - and so did not Merneptah. Because of this Islam and Muslims want it to have happened earlier - under a pharaoh we do not know how died, and who thus may have drowned. We have seen numbers down to 100-200 years for their stay. The Quran states that the pharaoh drowned, and then a pharaoh must be found who perhaps drowned.
But for one thing the Bible as mentioned is very clear on that the Jews were in Egypt for 430 years - and we here remind you that both science and Islam strongly have proved that Muhammad's/the Quran's/Islam's pet "explanation" that the Bible is falsified, is wrong. For another The Bible mentions that the Jews passed the city Ramses, a city which naturally did not exist until at least the first Ramses' reign (actually that city was founded by Ramses II). For a third the number of Jews does not add up if the stay in Egypt was short. It is theoretical possible that Jacob, his family and servants could become as many as the Bible mentions (600ooo men + women and children - 2. Mos. 12/37) in 430 years, but not in a much shorter time - even one generation shorter make that number impossible (after some interval, geometric lines expand fast).
Also: There is no indication for a huge natural catastrophe during the reign of Ramses II like the Quran (7/137b) indicate. On the contrary that period was a time of prosperity and building for Egypt.
Unless Islam proves it’s never documented claim about a shorter stay for the Jews in Egypt, that claim is wrong.
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001 2/49c: For the ones not knowing the Bible well: Times changed for the Jews (we know this name was not coined until much later, but it is normal to use it). They were made slaves and set to hard and grueling work, but as they all the same multiplied, the Pharaoh ordered all Jewish male babies to be killed. This according to the Bible - read Exodus (= 2.Mos.) 1/8-22 in OT (at the same time you will see which book of the Bible and the Quran is best literature also on this point).
002 2/50a: “- - - We (Allah*) divided the sea for you (Moses and his Jews*) - - -“. From other places in the Quran (and in most translations of the Bible) it is told that this was the Red Sea. But in the Hebrew original the name is Yam Suph, which as well can mean “The Sea of Reeds” (this also is confirmed in many footnotes in NIV (“New International Version” of the Bible)). The Sea of Reeds (also called the Timsah Sea) used to be a big lake where the Suez Canal now runs – not far from the Bitter Seas. The name tells it was just a shallow lake – the longest reeds we have been able to find, is a kind of rice that can be up to 5 - 7 m long and grows in the big sea Tonle Sap in Cambodia, and the reeds growing in this area of Egypt are shorter - - - and the water cannot be deeper than the reeds get their “heads” above the water to get that name.
Also look at the map: Goshen where the Jews settled was in the river delta of the Nile. To get to Sinai they had to go south-south-east. It would be stupidity beyond any credibility to go so far west that they ended at the western side of the Red Sea instead of walking all the way on dry land, and thus force such a huge number of people and animals to cross the sea by boats they did not have (remember they did not know about the opening of the sea – fire/smoke-column or not (= the pathfinder/Yahweh according to the Bible)). After all they according to the Bible were 600ooo men + women + children + animals and belongings = some 2.ooo.ooo humans at least. (Theoretically it is quite possible for 70 – 100 (depending on how many wives his 11 sons in the group had) persons that came with Jacob + Joseph and his family, to become may be 2.ooo.ooo “Jews” 430 years later.)
Science tells that – if the Exodus took place – the “Jews” quite likely were overtaken as they marched or camped along that lake, just like the Hebrew name in the OT may indicate.
*003 2/53b: “- - - We (Allah*) gave Moses the scripture - - -”. The books named after Moses (the 5 first in the Bible - the Torah) are not written by Moses and not even at the time of Moses. Moses lived (if he is not a fiction) around 1300-1200 BC (if the Exodus from Egypt really took place, it took place ca. 1235 BC during the reign of Pharaoh Ramses II according to science), and those books were written not earlier than ca. 800 BC - perhaps as late as 500 BC - also this according to science. (But remember there is a difference between writing down a story later, and falsifying a story, like Muslims claims - without and even against documentation. It also is likely there were written documents). What Moses got according to the Bible, were the 10 Commandments written in stone + he was told the law (parts of what later was called the Book (or Books) of Moses - in 2/53 called the Scriptures) which he himself wrote down afterward (this sometimes is called "the Book of Covenant" - f.x. 2. Mos. 24/7). A god had known this, whereas Muhammad knew nothing about their real age, and had to guess. (To be exact: The Bible says that Yahweh told Moses the law – nothing material except the two stone tablets where the ten Commandments were inscribed, were brought down from the mountain – and that he himself wrote down the laws afterward. OT also says that when Solomon moved the Ark of Covenant into the Temple in Jerusalem (1.Kings 8/9), it only contained the two stone tablets. There is nothing about “the Books of Moses”, though the OT makes it clear that the laws existed in writing and were found again later – but science is unanimous that the Books of Moses (you also see it written in singular) are written much later. If Muslims claim something else, they will have to produce proofs.) The law really only is part of the Torah/Books of Moses, but the name often is used for the complete "books of Moses".
004 2/93e: "- - - the Calf - - -". This refers to the golden calf during Exodus around 1235 BC - a time anomaly. See 4/13d below.
005 2/101i: “- - - the People of the Book - - -". A time anomaly. The Quran claims that copies of the claimed "Mother Book" in Heaven has been sent down to all prophets and messengers Allah has sent to all people in the world to all times (124ooo or perhaps more according to Hadiths) - and as the Quran also is such a copy, those other claimed copies must have been similar to the Quran, because the claimed "Mother Book" is claimed to be timeless and very old, perhaps so old that it is never written, but has existed since eternity. Then all copies must be similar. But no user of the claimed timeless Quran claimed sent down to all these claimed prophets for Allah throughout time (at least for the 160ooo - 200ooo years of Homo Sapiens alone, which the maker of the Quran obviously did not know) before "the Book" was made. It is unclear when the first Jewish scriptures which later became parts of the Bible, were written, but hardly before 800 BC, and the earliest mentioning of a book in the Bible (the Book of Covenance (2. Mos. 24/7) - likely just the laws which later became parts of "the Books of Moses") was during the time Moses - and if Moses was 80 years old when the Exodus took place ca. in 1235 BC according to science, and lived till he was 120, he lived from ca. 1315 BC to ca. 1195 BC. The Book of Covenance according to the Bible was made shortly after the Exodus, and thus must have been made ca.1235 - 1230 BC. Before this, and likely not until much later, no prophet or anybody else could understand this reference. The name "the People of the Book" simply was unknown at that time. But no omniscient god would give meaningless references without explaining what they meant. Also see 4/13d below.
006 2/136i: "- - - Moses - - -". A time anomaly. If the Bible gives his age correctly and if science gives the time of the Exodus correctly, Moses lived from ca. 1315 BC to ca. 1195 BC. The Quran claims that humans to all times and all places have been sent prophets or messengers for Allah, and that each has got a copy of the claimed "Mother Book" in Heaven = similar to the Quran, which also is claimed to be a copy of that claimed timeless book. But no user of those "Qurans" could understand references to Moses until after they knew about him - which they for one thing could not do until well after he was born, and for another thing not until information about him had reached them, which took a long time to f.x. Bolivia or Siberia or the Philippines or New Zealand. For claimed prophets there references to Moses - and many and much other - had exactly no meaning. No omniscient god would send down a book where large parts of the text had no meaning to more than 100ooo of his prophets.
007 2/248j: Conclusions about verse 2/248 in the Quran: It tells that Saul (wrongly called Talut in the Quran) has become a king, and that the Ark of Covenant was going to be brought to the Jews. But Saul was king shortly before 1000 BC, whereas the Ark of Covenant was made - not brought, but made - under Moses somewhere around 1330 BC (according to science the Exodus - if it is not fiction - took place ca. 1335 BC (under Pharaoh Ramses II) and the Ark was made not too long afterward). The Quran is some 300 years wrong - in addition to wrong way of "delivery". There are so clear references to the Ark in the Bible, that even if the Bible is the only source for it, Islam will have to bring strong proofs to make us believe it was brought by angels during the reign of Saul/Talut, containing relics from Moses and Aaron and their families.
*008 3/84m: “- - - in (the Books) given to Moses”. Wrong. Moses (if he ever existed) lived 1300-1200 BC (if the exodus from Egypt ever happened, it took place ca. 1235 BC - during the reign of pharaoh Ramses II according to science. Moses then was 80 according to the Bible, and lived for another 40 years the Bible says). These 5 books (the Torah) were written not earlier than ca. 800 BC, and may be as late as 500 BC, according to science, but named after Moses. Moses was never given those books (though he was orally given the law, which he himself wrote down later, according to the Bible – the laws later became part of “The Books of Moses” (what Moses wrote down also sometimes was called "the Book of Covenant")) - but this Muhammad did not know - - - whereas a god had known it. See 2/53a above.
009 4/160a: "For the iniquity of the Jews We (Allah*) made unlawful for them certain (food) - - - which had been lawful for them - in that they hindered many from Allah's Way - - -". How come? The laws here referred to, are the Laws of Moses, which the Jews got ca. 1235 - 1230 BC, shortly after the exodus from Egypt. Before that they have been slaves in Egypt - no power to hinder many from any religion. And before that they were too few to do so - the group which Jacob took to Egypt counted 70 persons, his daughters-in-law not included, and they did not go proselyting. This accusation simply needs a lot of strong proofs to be believed, because before the Jews received the mentioned law, they simply did not have the power to hinder anyone from believing if someone wanted. Something simply is wrong. Another thing: There is no reference to such a reason in the "Books of Moses" - the only perhaps reliable source about this. As the Quran with all its mistakes, etc. is not from any god, from where did Muhammad get this claim or information?
This "information" simply is not from the Bible, and there is no basis in the Bible for that it can be correct.
010 7/103d: “- - - see what was the end (drowning*) of those who made mischief. (Pharaoh and his men*)”. According to science the exodus happened (if it happened) around 1235 BC, during the reign of Ramses II. Ramses II did not drown, which is the punishment the Quran claims. (Also the Bible - from where it is likely Muhammad got this story, at least indirectly - tells that the pharaoh drowned. But the Bible was made by humans. Humans might have mixed Ramses II with one of his generals or one of his 67(?) sons. A god had known the truth.)
011 7/105c: "- - - your (the Pharaoh's*) Lord (Allah*) - - -". Science says that if the exodus ever happened, it took place around 1335 BC. That means under the mighty and well known Pharaoh Ramses II (Islam wants it to have happened earlier under pharaohs whose reason for death is not known - Ramses II did not drown (guess if 3 religions had vocalized about it if this had been the case!)). What is very sure, is that Allah was no known god to Ramses II, except perhaps as one of many gods - and under an older name, perhaps al-Ilah (the moon god of at least south Arabia - it is no co-incidence that the crescent moon is the symbol for Allah and for Islam) - in a distant country. And what is as sure, is that Ramses II was a polytheist.
We may add that originally Hubal was the moon god in Arabia, and the Kabah was his temple and dedicated to him. But when Muhammad was born, al-Lah - sometimes named Allah - had taken over as Arabia's main god. It is a bit ironic that a building dedicated to an old moon god was and is the most holy place on Earth for a claimed other and claimed omnipotent god - and as ironic is the fact that if Muhammad had been born earlier, Islam's god might have been named Hubal, not Allah (Muhammad simply took over the claimed mightiest of the pagan Arab gods, and earlier Hubal was reckoned to be the most powerful one).
012 7/105d: One small "en passent" here as Muslims do not like the timing of the Exodus, and as M. Yusuf Ali makes a comment (in A1073 to this verse) "(The Jews stayed in Egypt*) perhaps two to four centuries. (Renan allows only one century).": The Bible is very clear on how long time the Jews spent in Egypt: 430 Years, and there was no reason for the Jews to falsify this number, in addition to that in spite of Islam's claims no falsification is known in the Bible, mistakes yes, falsifications no (again: Guess if Islam had screamed about it if even one documented case had been found!). But as Ramses II did not drown, Islam needs to use an earlier pharaoh where one does not know how he died - f.x. Thothmes I (ca. 1540 BC) is mentioned. But Jacob - the patriarch who took the Jews to Egypt lived around 1800 BC (if he is not fiction), or to be exact: Abraham lived - if he is not fiction - around 2ooo - 1800 BC. Jacob was his grandson, and as Abraham was old when he got Isaac (the father of Jacob) it is realistic to say Jacob lived around 1800 or perhaps a bit later. Then it is not possible to use earlier pharaohs than Ramses II if the Jews stayed 430 years. A little twist is necessary in case - and voila!: Islam says (the mentioned YA comment 1073): "- - - Israel stayed there perhaps two to four centuries." Problem solved - without any source for the estimate given. May be the 430 years in the Bible is a falsification? (but in case why?) - the standard and easy "explanation" Muhammad always used.
And there is another point here you never hear Muslims mention: According to the Bible (1. Mos. 46/27) the Jews were 80 - 90 (70 + the wives of Jacob's sons) when they settled in Egypt. The same book mentions 2 - 3 places that when they left Egypt, they were 600ooo men = something like 2.ooo.ooo included women and children. It at least theoretically is quite possible for say 80 to become 2.ooo.ooo in 430 years. But it is in no way possible in 200 or 300 years (and 100 years is a joke), and even 400 may be unlikely - for a geometrical curve like this is, one extra generation makes a big difference. Also this makes an exodus and a pharaoh around 1500 - 1600 BC like Islam likes to claim to get rid of Ramses II, impossible.
There are some scientists, though, who think Exodus happened a little later, under the son of Ramses II, Merneptah. But that in case as said means later and not before - and under another pharaoh we know did not drown.
*013 7/137b: “- - - We (indicated Allah*) leveled to the ground the great works and fine Buildings which Pharaoh and his people had erected - - -”. There is no trace neither in archaeology, nor in history, literature or art, not even in folklore or fairy tales of such a catastrophe around the year 1235 BC (some years before the end of the reign of Ramses II in 1213 BC) when this should have happened – at the time of the exodus from Egypt. On the contrary; Ramses II was one of the strongest and most successful of the pharaohs, and also a great builder leaving MANY great buildings behind after many years of - among other things - building. Has Muhammad put more drama to his story, believing it would be impossible to control if it were true? Islam will have to find proofs - and they do not exist. (You will meet Muslims claiming the Quran here refers to the natural wear and tear which today means there are many ruins in Egypt, but that has nothing to do with a punishment of the pharaoh and his people to do - just another "explaining away", and a very primitive one.)
014 10/78c: "- - - in order that you (Moses*) and your brother (Aaron*) may have greatness in the land (Egypt*)?" This is not from the Bible. In the Bible there is no conflict about the religion here - there you only find "let my people go". But then much of what is said in the Quran to be from Exodus (= 1. Mos.), is not from the Bible - the only existing source about Exodus (the Jews leaving Egypt under Moses) except for legends and fairy tales.
015 10/78d: "- - - in order that you (Moses*) and your brother (Aaron*) may have greatness in the land (Egypt*)?" YA1463 comments: "Notice how they (Pharaoh Ramses II and his men*) attribute evil motives to the men of Allah, motives of ambitions and lust for power - - -. The same device was used against Al Mustafa (another name for Muhammad*)". For one thing this kind of insinuations from Ramses II is not mentioned in the Bible. But more interesting is that Yusuf Ali here turns the facts (the only perhaps facts are in the Bible, as the Quran and all its mistakes are not from any god, and thus not from any reasonably reliable source) upside down: Like so many places the history of real or claimed historical prophets were changed to become parallels to Muhammad's own life and story, to make him look like the old prophets, and thus a normal prophet.
016 10/83e: "- - - certainly Pharaoh was mighty on the earth - - -". Pharaoh Ramses II was one of the mightiest - if not the mightiest - pharaoh ever in old Egypt. Worse: We know his history pretty well, f.x. that he did not drown. Because of this Muslims wants Exodus (the Jews leaving Egypt) and Moses to have happened earlier under less well known pharaohs which perhaps may have drowned (they often indicate around 1500 - 1600 BC, and never an indication about from where they have the numbers). But science is clear: If Exodus ever happened, it happened around 1235 BC, (sources f.x. Encyclopedia Britannica) which means during the reign of Ramses II.
017 10/84b: "- - - believe in Allah - - -". According to the Bible only Yahweh was engaged in this story.
018 10/84-86: Moses and the Jews were good Muslims. Try to find this claim in the Bible! (And remember: Science has proved the Bible is not falsified - in spite of Muhammad's never proved claims he had to make to save his religion and his leadership. Islam has thoroughly proved the same by not finding one proved falsification among the tens of thousands of relevant manuscripts and fragments.)
019 10/90e: "I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam) (= am a Muslim*)". Wrong: We know Ramses II never became a monotheist - and he lived for years after the Exodus (if it ever happened) and was a polytheist. This also is one reason for why Islam wants Exodus to have happened earlier and under pharaohs we know less about, included no knowledge's about how they died - Islam propose 1500 - 1600 BC f.x, and even earlier. But this conflicts with what science knows about this - science agrees on ca. 1235 BC if it ever happened, which means under Ramses II.
020 10/92a: “This day (when the Egyptian army caught up with Moses and the Jews*) shall We (Allah*) save thee (Pharaoh*) in the body - - -.” The expression “in the body” should mean the same as “bodily” or “safe and (relatively at least) sound”. This may be true, as Ramses II did not drown. But it strongly contradicts other verses in the Quran which tells that he drowned. It also must be said that to save the Pharaoh in the very moment of death, would contradict 4/18, which tells it is too late to repent when you know you are about to die.
- 17/103: “- - - but We (Allah*) drowned him (Pharaoh) and all that were with him.”
- 28/40: “- - - and We (Allah*) flung them (Pharaoh and his men*) into the sea: now behold what was the End of those who did wrong!”
- 43/55: “- - - and We (Allah*) drowned them all (Pharaoh and his men*) .”
021 14/5e: (A14/5): “Bring out thy (Moses’*) people (the Jews*) from the depth of darkness into light, and teach them to remember the Days of Allah”. What is meant by the Days of Allah? – the Exodus from Egypt? – or the Day of Doom? – or for that case some other day? Nobody knows. But when a god gives an order like this, it is far from unimportant that his followers get a chance to understand what he is talking about. Would a god forget that information?
022 14/5f: “Bring out thy (Moses’*) people (the Jews*) from the depth of darkness into light, and teach them to remember the Days of Allah”. According to the Bible, Moses' and the Jews' god was Yahweh, not Allah.
*023 17/102c: “- - - I (Moses*) consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!” (Not from the Bible.) Pharaoh Ramses II was not doomed to destruction, at least not this time. He did not drown, in spite of what the Quran (and the Bible) says (but for the Bible there is a possible explanation for the mistake - not so for the Quran, as gods make no mistakes). – and he lived for many years (died 1213 BC) after the possible exodus around 1235 BC. (This may be one of the reasons why some Muslims want the Exodus from Egypt to have happened under pharaohs we do not know so well as Ramses II - preferably one we do not know if he may have drowned or not. You, therefore, frequently see or hear Muslims claim the Exodus was in the 1500s or 1600s BC or even earlier, and that the time in Egypt was 200-300 or even 100-200 years - claims which collide also with other information (f.x. the number of Jews leaving Egypt, and the mentioning of the town Ramses at least two times (1. Mos. 1/11 and 12/37) in connection with the Exodus)). The Bible clearly says 430 Years, and science (included Encyclopedia Britannica if we remember correctly) is pretty unanimous: If Exodus ever happened, it happened around 1235 BC = during the reign of Ramses II.
The Bible: The Pharaoh then honored his word to Moses and “let his people go” – though only after 10 serious plagues. But then he regretted the loss of all those slaves and followed after them. The Jews were caught against a sea, but Yahweh made a path for them across it.
024 17/103a: "So he (Ramses II*) resolved to remove them (the Jews*) from the face of earth - --". This is not from the Bible. The Bible tells Ramses regretted loosing so many slaves and wanted to recapture them. (2. Mos. 14/5).
###025 17/103b: “- - - We (Allah*) did drown him (Pharaoh Ramses II) and all who were with him.” The pitiful fact is that we know from history that Ramses II did not drown. He even did not die until some years after possible the exodus, according to history.
10/92: “This day (the same as in 17/103*) shall We (Allah*) save thee in the body - - -“. The Quran mainly tells that the Pharaoh did drown (even though Pharaoh Ramses II did not die from drowning, and not until some years later (1213 BC) than when science says the Exodus took place (1235 BC) – if it took place). But here either that is contradicted – or Allah in reality contradicted his own promise of “saving the Pharaoh in the body”, which should mean “bodily”, “safely”.
###026 17/103c: “- - - We (Allah*) did drown him (Pharaoh Ramses II) and all who were with him.” According to the Bible it was Yahweh, not Allah who did this. And Ramses II did not drown.
027 20/77c: "- - - strike a dry path for them (the Jews*) through the sea - - -". In the Bible this was not told to Moses until when he had to do it.
*028 20/78b: “Then the Pharaoh pursued them with his forces, but the waters completely overwhelmed them and cover them up”. May be the water covered up the troops, but not the Pharaoh - - - Ramses II did not drown, and he did not die until years later (in 1213 BC) according to science. Another thing: They most likely did not cross the Red Sea proper. The original Hebrew Bible in reality uses a name that also has the meaning “Sea of Reeds”. The Sea of Reeds - also named Timsah Lake - was a big, shallow lake south of the Bitter Seas in the area where you now find the Suez Canal. For Moses to walk past a big lake with his some 2 million Jews (600ooo men + women and children according to the Bible) and belongings and animals is one thing. To march down the western side of the Red Sea and plan to cross that sea by boats they did not have, is quite another thing – remember that they did not know that Yahweh would split the sea (and most of them hardly had believed it if they had been told). The fact that the Hebrew name for the sea they crossed (?) – Yam Suph – also means “the Sea of Reeds” is mentioned in footnotes many times in NIV – and in other literature. Similar claims that all – included the pharaoh drowned – in 7/103 – 10/90 -17/103 – 23/48 - 26/66 – 27/14 – 28/40 – 40/37 – 43/55 – 44/25-28 – 51/40 – 69/9-10 - 73/16 – 79/25. We may add that science seems to be pretty sure that if the Exodus happened, it happened around 1235 BC = during the reign of Ramses II. As we know that Ramses did not drown, Islam dearly wants it to have happened earlier and under a less known pharaoh that we do not know from what he died, but as so often they only backs up the claim with speculations. And not to forget: If it happened much earlier the "known" times do not add up.
029 20/79b: "Pharaoh (Ramses II*) led his people astray instead of leading them aright". This may or may not mean that Ramses II should have made Egypt Muslim - 2ooo years before Muhammad and the first known mentioning of Islam or Allah. No comment.
030 20/80a: "- - - Children of Israel - - -". A time anomaly.
031 20/80b: "- - - We (Allah*) made a Covenant with you (the Jews*) on the right side of (Mount Sinai) - - -". Convenient - in old Arab superstition the right side was the good side, whereas the left one was the bad side. Another point is that according to the Bible the involved god was Yahweh, not Allah. But also see 20/80c just below.
032 20/80c: (YA2601): "The Arabian side of (Mt.*) Sinai (Jabal Musa) was the place where Moses received his commission before going to Egypt". "The Arabian side" = east Sinai. But Mt. Sinai was and is in the west of Sinai. Or is there any Muslim belief that the Arabian side of the mountain (here east in case) is "the right side"? - there is no indication for such a meaning in the Quran. No comments, but also see 20/80b just above.
033 20/83-84: Not from the Bible, actually partly contradicting it - see 20/57a+b above.
##034 20/85b: “- - - the Samiri had led them astray”. But the Jews still had not arrived in Samaria and there existed no Samaris (actually the name Samaria/Samarians/Samaritans as far as we can find, was not coined until 722 (?) BC under the little known king Omri who bought the land and built and named the town (1. Kings 16/24) - more than 500 years after the exodus that happened (if it happened) ca. 1235 BC). Also no Samiri is mentioned here in the Bible. Muslims try to “explain” the mistake by saying may be it is meant “shmeer” = stranger, or “shomer” = watchman = samara in Arab (irrelevant as the Jews did not speak Arab). - - - but if you cherry-pick from a whole language, it always is possible to find words that are look-alike – and that the Arab word here is a look-alike, is totally irrelevant, as these Jews of the old hardly spoke Arab as mentioned and thus did not use the word "samarar". It also is clear that the top translator, Abdullah Yusuf Ali, meant it is a name, not a work or something - he used capital 1. letter in the name. The same goes for other translations we have. But if the Quran means some other thing than it says here – or is possible to misunderstand - how many other places in the book are there similar or worse/religious mistakes? Similar claims in 20/87 – 20/95.
It is here telling about Islam's ways of getting out of problems or mistakes, that one of the "explanations" for who this person could have been who was a Samiri (the name Samaritan is used in some translations) at the time of Moses, is that was "'a man of the Jewish clan of the Samaria', i.e. the ethnic and religious group designated in later times as the Samaritans - - -" (quoted from A20/70a). This in spite of that no such group or clan or sect existed at that time and not for another 600+ years. This "explanation" is backed by top Islamic thinkers like Tabari and Zamakhshari.
If no explanation is possible, then make up one.
035 20/85c: "- - - the Samiri - - -" is not in the Bible. See 20/57b+c above.
036 20/87a: “- - - the Samiri - - -“. See 20/85b above.
037 20/87b: "- - - the weight of the ornaments - - -". There is some dishonest Muslim slander connected to this. When the Jews left Egypt, they were given valuables by the Egyptians. Muslims say they must have use dishonest means to get it and cheated the Egyptians (A20/73). This is dishonest because it is told in the Bible how it happened, and Muslim scholars who read the Bible to find weak point to use, impossibly can have overlooked it, especially as it was a point of interest for them - the Bible is bigger than the Quran, but it is not that big. The Bible says (2. Mos. 12/35-36): The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and clothing. The Lord had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians". It thus was not a question of cheating, but of divine action according to this book. But it is easy for Muslims to believe in the cheating Jews (according to Islamic sources it cannot have been too much - YA2607 hints at one or two man-loads.) The real mechanism for the Egyptians' willingness to give, may f.x. have been panic over what had just happened; the unanimous death of all firstborn in Egypt, and a desperate wish to for any price get these people away.
One point we have heard not one Muslim comment on, and not seen one Muslim scholar write about, is if this limited amount of gold and valuables were fair payment for generations of slave work they had been forced to do in Egypt?
038 20/88aa: "- - - the image of a calf - - -". The calf was a religious symbol in Egypt, connected to the "god-ox" Apis (a symbol for the great Egyptian god Ptah) - therefore this strange "god-image".
039 20/89: "Could they (the Jews*) not see that it (the golden calf*) could not return them a word (for answer), and that it had no Power either to harm them or to do them good?". This also goes for Allah: He has to this date never given an unmistakable answer, never unmistakably harmed anybody, nor unmistakably done the least good to anybody (guess if Islam had told about it if there had been just one single proved incident!)
###There also is another point: The Quran many places ridicules pagans for believing in images of pagan gods. But the pagans ever so well knew the images were not themselves gods - in spite of what the Quran indicates. They very well "knew" that the images only were symbols for their gods, and when they believed and prayed, it was to the believed gods represented the images. Muhammad seems to have believed the pagans treated the images as if they were real gods. Any god had known better - then who made the Quran?
040 20/90c: "- - - for verily (it definitely is no proved verity/truth*) your Lord is (Allah) - - -". The Bible here disagrees and means that the god of the Jews was - and is - Yahweh.
041 20/91a: Jews in Sinai said: “We will not abandon this cult (the golden calf*) - - -". The calf was a religious symbol connected to the holy ox Apis in Egypt where they came from - therefore this strange "god". (Apis was reckoned to be an incarnation of the main Egyptian god Ptah.)
042 20/91c: Jews in Sinai said: “We will not abandon this cult (the golden calf*), but we will devote ourselves to it until Moses returns to us.” And Moses was very angry when he returned and found a live pagan cult among his people. But contradiction:
- 7/149: In this verse the Jews found they had sinned, and they repented before Moses returned in the next verse, 7/150.
043 20/92-94: Not from the Bible (also 20/90-91 is not really from the Bible). See 20/57b+c and 20/85 above.
044 20/95b: “- - - O Samiri - - -“. See 20/57b+c and 20/85b above. The Samiri is not in the Bible. Where has Muhammad found him?
045 20/95-97: Not from the Bible. See 20/57b+c above.
046 20/96b: (A82): “He (the Samari*) replied: ‘I saw what they saw not: so I took a handful (of dust) from the footprint of the Messenger, and threw it (into the calf) - - -.” But is this literal translation correct? Muslim scholars tend to understand it more figuratively. F.x. “The Message of the Quran” (Swedish 2006): “- - - (I), therefore, took a handful of what the Messenger had left behind and threw it away - - -.” And the 2008 English edition (which seems to have made small “corrections” in dogmatic "correct" direction and are slightly less honest than Muhammad Asad himself, even though he, too, sometimes is more dogmatic than honest): “- - - so I took a handful of the Apostle’s teachings and cast it away.” What is the true interpretation? It seems that one has to learn Arab to be sure – honesty is not always part of a war religion. Especially the differences in the text between the 2006 and the 2008 edition of “The Message of the Quran” may be telling something about Muslims and about Islam.
047 23/48: “- - - and they (Pharaoh and his chiefs*) became the ones who were destroyed (drowned*))”. But at least the pharaoh (Ramses II) was not destroyed/drowned. Ramses II did not die by drowning. And we know he died only years after (in 1213 BC) the (possible) exodus in ca 1235 BC - - - if it ever happened..
048 23/49a: “And We (Allah*) gave Moses the Book - - -“. Wrong. Moses never got something even remotely similar to the Quran or the Bible, according to the Bible. What he clearly got according to both the Bible and the Quran, was the 10 Commandments. That was all he physically got according to the Bible. But he was told the Laws – later part of the Books of Moses – and wrote them down later himself (sometimes called "the Book of Covenant"). Science tells that what is called The Books of Moses are centuries younger.
*049 26/29c: “If thou (Moses*) dost put forward any god other than me (the pharaoh*), I will certainly put you in prison.” Wrong – in Egypt one had many gods. (One knows some 2ooo names for gods in the old Egypt, but some gods may have had more than one name.) Even more: According to one of Islam’s tries to explain away the mistake of placing Xerxes’ man Haman at Ramses II’s court - and hundreds of years wrong - the high priest (Ha-Amon) of one of the main gods – Amon – even was present and one of the pharaoh’s main advisers at this meeting (a “fact” that in case makes this sentence impossibly illogical - but then it is typical for Muslims' explaining away of mistakes in the Quran, that the "explanations" "explain" some aspects with a mistake, but collides with others). It is impossible that Ramses II said this if at the same time a high priest - Haman/Ha-Amon - of a main god was present. Or the other way around: If Ramses II said this, Islam’ "explanation" about Haman as Ha-Amon is proved wrong. Make your choice - but science knows that Amon was a top god among many others in Egypt, so it is highly unlikely Ramses II said what the Quran claims, unless Islam has real proofs.
The religious part - and other details - in this debate are not from the Bible. (According to the Bible the only thing Ramses II now said about the god of the Jews, was a short sentence saying that he did not know him and would not respect him (2. Mos. 5/2), and he said pretty little about Yahweh later, too).
As it is proved ever so well that Egypt had many gods, this quote is historical nonsense. And as Islam claims that the high priest for the god Amon - Ha-Amon - is the explanation for the name Haman mentioned in the Quran, either this Islamic "explanation" or the claim that Haman = Ha-Amon is nonsense and dishonesty.
050 26/33: "- - - it (Moses' hand) was white to all beholders". According to the Bible it was white and leprous (2. Mos. 4/6). Seemingly a minor detail, but for one thing leprosy was no minor thing at that time, and for another to afterwards remove also the leprosy told much more about something supernatural than just to remove a shining color. Two details: 1) according to the Bible it was Aaron who threw the rod/staff (2. Mos. 7/10). 2) It is not mentioned in the Bible that Moses used the miracle with his hand.
051 26/35: "His (Moses'*) plan is to get you out of your land - - -". What is the basis for this claim? - there was nothing indicating that Moses had such plans. Besides: This is not from the Bible, so from where did Muhammad get his "information"? As no god was involved in the Quran, the only alternatives are legends, apocryphal (made up) scriptures, fairy tales or fantasy.
052 26/38: "- - - a day well-known". It is unclear what this means - it also is not mentioned in the Bible. Muslim scholars guess it refers to a festival, but they have no source for this belief.
053 26/39: "And the people were told - - -". There is no reference to such things in the Bible.
054 26/40a: "- - - that we (the Egyptians*) may follow the sorcerers (in religion) if they win?" This contradicts the Bible - there it was no question of following this or that religion, only "let my people (the Jews*) go". Also see 26/35 above.
055 26/40b: "- - - that we (the Egyptians*) may follow the sorcerers (in religion) if they win?" Such a demand is nonsense compared to what we know about the religion of Egypt at that time. It also is psychological nonsense - it takes more than this to make the whole population of a country change religion (if the "wrong" part won). For one thing it had fundamental grips on the population - even a royal decree about changing to another religion would not work - see Akn-Aton's try even if that was not just at this time (pharaoh 1372 - 1355 BC). And for another the magicians would have the same religion as the people, so why then a silly demand like this? (Some Muslims claims it is meant the forwarding of the worship of the pharaoh, but the pharaoh was not the main god in Egypt.)
056 26/41c: "Of course - shall we (the sorcerers*) have a (suitable) reward if we win". For one thing this is not from the Bible (see 26/35 above), and for another thing hardly anybody spoke like that to one of the mightiest pharaohs ever.
057 26/42c: “- - - ye (the sorcerers*) shall in that case (if you win over Moses*) be (raised to posts) nearest to my person (Ramses II).” It is highly unlikely that the mighty pharaoh Ramses II said this to a flock of sorcerers – and especially for winning over an after all small opponent. But it sounds good in a religious speech to uncritical believers.
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###058 26/46-47: "Then did the sorcerers fall down, prostrate in adoration, Saying 'We believe in the Lord of the Worlds - - -". For one thing this is not from the Bible. But much more serious in this connection is that #######this is one of the proofs for that Muhammad knew he was lying each time he explained away his inability to produce any miracle as a proof for his god and for his own connection to a god, with that Allah did not want because it would make no-one believe in Allah anyhow. Here Muhammad is telling - early in his career and before many of those "explaining" away - about a minor miracle which made all those sorcerers suddenly become ardent believers in just Allah. Also see 10/90c above and 26/51 below.
NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!! NB!!!
059 26/49c: Pharaoh Ramses II said: “Surely he (Moses*) is your (the sorcerers’) leader - - -.” Wrong. Ramses II knew Moses from the royal court from before Moses had to flee (see 26/18-19), and knew he had been away for 40 years (according to the Bible - an unspecified number of years, but years, according to the Quran) – he could not be the leader of the local sorcerers.
060 26/49d: "Be sure I (Pharaoh Ramses II) will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides - - -". According to our information this Arab way of punishing was not used in Egypt at the time of Ramses II.
061 26/49e: “- - - I (Pharaoh Ramses II) will cause you (Moses and others*) to die on the cross!” But the old Egypt did not use crucifixion as punishment. Similar claim in 7/124 – 20/71.
###062 26/51: "Only, our (the sorcerers*) desire is that our Lord (Allah) will forgive us our faults, that we may become foremost among the Believers". For one thing this is not from the Bible. For another thing it is a contradiction to reality - one know there was no religion like Islam in Egypt around 1235 BC when the Exodus happened according to science - if it happened. But more serious: #####That Muhammad told that such an after all small miracle could make all the sorcerers such strong believers, proves very strongly that he knew he was lying each time he told miracles would make no-one believe. Also see 10/90c above and 26/46-47 below.
As for forgiving from Allah: See 2/187d above.
063 26/52a: "By inspiration We (Allah*) told Moses - - -". All the other things aside: The word "inspiration" is not mentioned in the Bible in connections like this. Yahweh gave his messages either by direct contact, by visions, or by means of dreams (4. Mos. 12/6-8). But this was the method by which Muhammad claimed he got most of his information and orders from his god, and then it had value that his followers believed this was the normal way of contact with their god for prophets - and thus that Muhammad was a normal prophet with normal contact with his god. You will find several claims in the Quran saying that different prophets received their information etc. by inspiration. A number of places - like here - this information is added without having any meaning or value for the story - obviously for some reason outside the story, like telling the audience about the claimed normal way for the god to contact his claimed prophets.
To get his verses and surahs "by inspiration", was a very convenient way to receive it: Not possible for anyone to check, and very easy to subtract or add points or more - - - and easy to make up verses and more. This religious part of the story about Exodus is not from the Bible - but by adding it, Muhammad made it fit one of his 3 - 4 standard receipts for tales in the Quran.
#####064 26/56: (A26/30): "Thus the Quran illustrates the psychological truth that, as a rule, a dominant nation is unable really to understand the desire for liberty on the part of the group or groups which it oppresses, and therefore attributes their rebelliousness to no more than unreasonable hatred and blind envy of the strong". Something to think over for Muslims who through the times suppressed and worse so many? And who have as an official goal in the Quran to conquer and suppress every country and every non-Muslim.
###########And one more and related point: Most Muslims are unable to understand why the religion/they are disliked and sometimes hated. They are unable to see that memories of a horrible history, added to a partly immoral moral code, an aggressive and suppressive ideology, glorification of oppression of all non-Muslims, and haughtiness, etc. are the real reasons. They are so used to their own ways of thinking and of their own moral code, etc. that they are unable to see that much of it far from is laudable, and honestly believe they are the best and with the best religion and best rules. Living that far from "do to others like you want others do to you", they are unable to see the reality, and believe that they are victims of unjust dislike and hate.
Read f.x. relevant pages on Internet, and see all the promises from Muslims that Islam will conquer and suppress "Italy and all Europe", etc., etc. Are there rational reasons for non-Muslims to react? - especially if they know there is a real possibility for this to come true, because of the inhuman war ideology behind Islam? - and even more so if they know enough about Islam to know that the Quran with all its errors is not from any god, and the religion thus a made up pagan one, under which they risk becoming slaves?
065 26/57-58: (A26/31) – the alternative explanation left out in the 2008 edition): “So We (Allah*) expelled them from gardens, springs, treasures and every kind of honorable positions - - -.” Is it here the Egyptians that over time have robbed the Jews? - or now robbed the Jews? – or is it Allah who punishes the Egyptians afterwards? Islam is still debating this unclear point.
066 26/58-59: (YA3169): “Treasures, and every kind of honorable position; Thus it was, but We (Allah’*) made the Children if Israel inheritors of such things”. But the alternative meaning of these two verses is: Verse 58 “We (Pharaoh*) have dispossessed the Israelis from everything good in the land, and made them our slaves”. Verse 59 (Allah comments): “Poor ignorant man (Pharaoh*)! You may oppress those who are helpless, but We (Allah) have declared that they shall inherit these things”. As one understands, the language in the original Quran is clear, distinct and impossible to misunderstand (!). Some very different meanings.(We may add that according to the Bible, the Jews were given valuables when leaving. Muslim scholars claim this proved the dishonesty of the Jews - and not one of them as far as we have seen, has mentioned that this could be part of this inheritance if they were promised inheritance by the god. Also not one of them as far as we have seen, mention that even if they had got very much, it would be lousy payment for likely some generations of slave work. For some reason or others, they just claim it proves Jewish dishonesty.)
#067 26/59a: "- - - but We (Allah*) made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things (riches, etc. - see 26/58 just above*) - - -". Also the Bible says the god (via Moses) saw to that the Jews received some riches when leaving Egypt (2. Mos. 12/36). Muslims today have a tendency to blame the Jews for dishonesty and robbing in this connection, but is such an accusation right, fair, or honest when both the Bible and the Quran indicate that this was the work of the god?
Besides: We have till this date not met one Muslim saying that perhaps this was fair payment of centuries of slave work.
*068 26/63a: “Then We (Allah*) told Moses by inspiration: ‘Strike the sea with thy rod’. So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain”. According to science the Jews started the exodus (if it ever happened - and if it did, it happened ca. 1235 BC during the reign of Pharaoh Ramses II - one of the greatest pharaohs ever - and some years before Ramses II’s death in 1213 BC (Muslims often wants to change this – preferably to around 1500-1600 BC - because we know Ramses II did not drown, but science is clear on this point)) from Goshen in the north east of Egypt – to be specific: In the Nile delta. They travelled south roughly parallel to what is now the Suez Canal, and to the west of it. Then they turned south east, before they again headed south - still roughly parallel to what is now the Suez Canal, but to the east of where the canal now is. Then they continued south parallel to the Red Sea. Before the Suez Canal came, between the Mediterranean Sea and the Red Sea, here was unbroken low and quite flat land with some scattered lakes, the biggest of which were the Bitter Seas.
According to science the Jews may have been cornered against one of the seas during the above mention leg towards southeast, a sea named the Timsah Sea – or Yam Suph in Hebrew (meaning the Sea of Reeds). In the old Hebrew scriptures the Jews were cornered against Yam Suph, which can mean the Red Sea (the most frequently used translation) or the Sea of Reeds – both names are possible. The Sea of Reeds was a shallow sea - as for the exact depth our sources are vague, but quite likely just a few meters at most. (The longest reed we have been able to find, is a special kind of rice growing in the Tonle Sap Lake in Cambodia. It can be up to 5 - 7 m. The reeds growing in Egypt are shorter, and to get the name “Sea of Reeds”, the lake had to be shallow enough for the reeds to get their “heads” above the water over at least a large part of the lake). To guess: From one or two and up to a few - perhaps 3 to 5 - meters deep as indicated above, or perhaps a bit more at the deepest places.
In such shallow seas there simply was not deep enough water to make “each separate part - - - like the huge, firm mass of a mountain”. Wrong in case – and it is likely this is the case, even if the more dramatic Red Sea most often is used as a translation. This because for Moses it had been plain stupidity to march south along the western side of the Red Sea when he wanted to go east to Sinai, and then have to cross that sea to reach his destination, with all those people, equipment, animals, etc. in boats they did not have. (The Bible tells they were 600ooo men, which means some 2 mill. included women and children – a number which is mathematically possible (though not likely) after the 430 years the Bible says the Jews lived in Egypt - but it is likely many other slaves came along to get out of bondage, and thus added considerably to that number. 2. Mos. 12/38 indicates so.)
069 26/66: “But We (Allah*) drowned the others (the Egyptians).” Wrong, at least for Ramses II himself - he did not die from drowning, and he did not die until some years later. The Bible has a similar mistake, but the Bible is written by humans, and humans can have mistaken one of Ramses II's generals or one of his 67(?) sons (the number varies from one source to another, as it in reality is unclear) for the pharaoh - an omniscient god does not make such mistakes.
070 37/114a: “Again (of old) We (Allah*) bestowed Our favor on Moses and Aaron - - -“. “The Message of the Quran” is quick to add that it was not because they were progeny of Abraham, but because of their own quality. What the Quran never mentions, what Islam never mentions, what Muslims never mention, is that Israel’s (belief in a) special contact with Yahweh, is not – repeat not - that they had an ancestor named Abraham some thousands of years ago - though it does not hurt. The reason was and is the covenant that was made between Israel and Yahweh according to OT – and renewed several times through the years. It is good propaganda to bully them for believing Abraham who lived some 4ooo years ago (if he ever lived) is a part-out card to Heaven. But it is pretty dishonest to make this lie, and to never mention the real reason for the Jew’s belief: The covenant – broken and maltreated, but never lifted or ended. It is dishonest to hide this - in the same way as it is pretty dishonest never to mention the “new covenant” made via Jesus in NT – but then Muslims are obliged to use al-Taqiyya (the lawful lie) or “Kitman” (the lawful half-truth) if necessary, when it comes to defending or promoting Islam – no matter whether Islam is a false religion or not (for some reason or other Islam and its Muslims seldom claim that Islam is the religion of honesty)).
(Around 1000 BC - Saul was the first king, David the second (1007? - 970 BC?), and then Solomon - till perhaps 927 BC.
071 40/23a: "Of old We (Allah*) sent Moses - - -". It is most likely - an understatement - it was Yahweh who sent Moses. The two gods are not the same in spite of Muhammad's claims, as the teachings fundamentally are far too different (and we remind you: Science has proved the Bible is not falsified - and Islam has proved it even stronger by never being able to document one single falsification of the tens or hundreds of thousands of falsifications which had had to be made to cover up tricking with the Bible.)
072 40/24b: "- - - Pharaoh - - -". According to science (f.x. Encyclopedia Britannica) Exodus happened around 1235 B.C. (if it is not fiction) under Pharaoh Ramses II. Now Ramses II likely was the greatest pharaoh ever, and science knows much about him - among other things that he did not drown, in spite of that both the Bible and the Quran says so. But the Bible is written by humans, and humans can have mistaken one of Ramses II's generals or one of his 67(?) sons for the pharaoh. This explanation is not possible for the Quran which is claimed to come from a god - no omniscient god makes mistakes. Because of this Islam tries to claim it happened earlier - sometimes as early as 1500 BC or even a bit earlier - under less known pharaohs whom we do not know if may have drowned or not. That this also collides with other information about Exodus, does not matter very much - it is quite normal for Muslims to find "explanations" which seemingly give the answer they want, and overlook - or "overlook" - other facts which goes against their "explanation" or even makes it impossible. (In this case f.x. the 70 - 80 of Jacob's family who settled in Egypt around 1665(?) BC, impossibly could have multiplied to the number which according to the Bible left Egypt at Exodus in less than some 400+ years (430 according to the Bible). Something Muslim scholars know, but never mention.)
073 40/24c: “- - - Haman - - -”. See 28/6c above.
074 40/24d: "- - - Qarun - - -". This man and his story are not from the Bible. And there are - and were - no other sources from that time relevant to Moses. This story thus either is made up or from some supernatural source - and in spite of Muhammad's claim the Quran is not from a god, as no god makes that much wrong and use so many mistaken facts, etc. like in the Quran. Or it is from a legend or a fairy tale - - - or made up.
075 40/24e: "- - - they (Ramses II, Haman, Qarun*) called (him (Moses*)) 'a sorcerer telling lies!'" Qarun hardly called him so, according to the Quran.
076 40/24f: "- - - they (Ramses II, Haman, Qarun*) called (him (Moses*)) 'a sorcerer telling lies!'" See 40/25d below.
077 40/25a: "Now, when he (Moses) came to them in Truth, from Us (Allah)". (For some reason or other Islam and its Muslims seldom claim that Islam is the religion of honesty.) See 40/23a above. Another fact is that according to the Bible Moses' god was Yahweh, not Allah.
078 40/25d: "- - - they (Pharaoh and his people*) said: “Slay the sons of those who believe with him (Moses*) - - -". How could this reliably be written in the claimed "Mother Book" (of which the Quran is a copy according to Muhammad) billions of years before it was said or happened? One more of the many texts or quotes in the Quran which could not have been reliably written into the claimed "Mother Book" (13/39b, 43/4b+c, 85/21-22) in Heaven (of which the Quran is claimed to be a copy) eons ago, unless predestination was and is 100% like the Quran claims many places (if you look, you will find more cases than we mention - we only mention some of the obvious ones). If man has free will - even partly only (an expression some Muslims use to flee from the problem full predestination contra free will for man (and also contra that there is no meaning in praying to Allah for help, if everything already is predestined in accordance with a plan "nobody and nothing can change" - a problem which Muslims seldom mention), and an expression no Muslim we have met has ever defined) - and can change his mind, full and reliable clairvoyance about the future, not to mention the distant future, is impossible even for a god, as the man always could/can change his mind or his words once more, in spite of Islam's claims. There are at least 5 reasons - at least 3 of them unavoidable - for this:
- When something is changed, automatically the future is changed.
- The laws of chaos will be at work and change things, if even a tiny part is made different. And multiply even a tiny change with some billion people through the centuries, and many and also big things will be changed.
- The displacement of a happening - f.x. the death of a warrior in battle - of only one yard or one minute may or even will change the future forever (that yard or minute f.x. may mean that the warrior killed - or not killed - an opponent). The laws of chaos and the "Butterfly Effect" and the "Domino Effect" kick in.
- The so-called "Butterfly Effect"; "a butterfly flapping its wing in Brazil may cause a storm in China later on" or "a small bump may overturn a big load".
- The so-called "Domino Effect": Any change will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change, which will cause this and this to change - - - and so on forever. Also each cause may cause one or more or many changes. And: The Butterfly Effect only may happen, whereas the Domino Effect is unavoidable and inexorable - a main reason why if you in a battle is killed 5 meters from or 5 minutes later than where and when Allah has predestined - not to mention if you die when tilling your fields 50 miles off - unavoidably the entire future of the world is changed. Perhaps not much changed, but like said; multiply it by many billion people through the centuries, and the world is totally changed. And full clairvoyance of course totally impossible - except in occultism, mysticism, made up legends, and in fairy tales.
This that Allah predestines everything like the Quran claims and states many places, is an essential point, because besides totally removing the free will of man (in spite of the Quran's claims of such free will, or some Muslims' adjusted "partly free will for man" - to adjust the meanings where the texts in the Quran are wrong, is typical for Islam and its Muslims) - it also removes the moral behind Allah's punishing (and rewarding) persons for what they say and do - Allah cannot reward or punish people for things he himself has forced them to say or do, and still expect to be believed when he (Muhammad?) claims to be a good or benevolent or moral or just god. Also see 2/51b and 3/24a above.
And as mentioned above, full predestination also makes prayers to Allah meaningless, as everything already is predestined according to Allah's Plan - a Plan which no prayer ("nobody and nothing") can change.
Also see 3/154e, 6/149a, 7/34a, 14/22b, and not least 27/22-26 above.
079 40/25e: Pharaoh said: “Slay the sons of those who believe with him (Moses*), and keep alive their females”. A new punishment for the Jewish slaves, and it is clear that this is to start fast. But contradiction:
- 2/49: “- - - We (Allah*) delivered you from the people of Pharaoh (who*) - - - slaughtered your sons - - -“. This already was praxis.
- 7/141: “- - - Pharaoh’s people - - - who slew your male children and saved alive the females - - -.” The Bible tells more than one place that the killing of male babies started long before the situation in 7/127, and that those killings were the reason for why the baby Moses was set adrift on the Nile (the Quran gives no real reason - but the reason was that male babies were killed).
- 14/6: “(Moses said about Pharaoh that he*) slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live - - -.” This already was praxis.
080 40/26b: "Said Pharaoh (Ramses II*): 'Leave me to slay Moses - - -". Not from the Bible - like much more in this story and in the rest of the Quran. Also see 40/25d above.
081 40/26c: "What I (Pharaoh Ramses II*) fear is lest he (Moses*) should change your religion - - -". For one thing this is naivety - it is not that easy for a little known leader of some slaves to change the religion of a mighty country, which Egypt was under Ramses II, and for another thing this is not from the Bible. See 40/24b above. There was nothing about the religion during Exodus in the Bible, only: "Let my people go".
082 40/27b: This verse - and more - is contradicted by the Bible, in the meaning that there was no religious quarrel or similar with the Egyptians according to the Bible during Exodus, only: "Let my people go". Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.
083 40/28b: "A believer, a man from the people of Pharaoh (Egyptians*) - - -". How many Muslims existed in reality ca. 1850 years before Muhammad started his religion? Exactly none are found - in history, in literature, in archeology - not even in old enough folklore or fairy tales.
084 40/28c: "- - - Pharaoh (Ramses II*) - - -". A time anomaly.
085 40/28d: "- - - faith - - -". Islam. Only Islam is faith in the Quran. Contradicted by the Bible which tells that the god of the Jews and of Moses was Yahweh, not Allah. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.
086 40/28e: "My (Moses'*) Lord is Allah". Believe this if you want - most likely only Muslims are able to. But see 40/28d just above.
087 40/37c: "- - - thus was made alluring, in Pharaoh's eyes, the evil of his deeds - - -". This is a very common human tendency: What you learn is right, what you think is right, and what your surroundings think is right, - well, that is right. A very good example of this is Islam. They (at least shall) live according to the Quran and its partly immoral moral code, its partly unethical ethical code, its partly unjust judicial code, etc., and feel very well - not seldom even haughty and high above non-Muslim - because they have such good and high standards to live up to. Before you judge them and their moral, etc. deficits, remember that most of them honestly believe they are superior.
#####Even ordinary people can do horrible things if they know their group or culture accepts such deeds, and even more so if they know such deeds are laudable according to their people or moral codes. Study Muslim history, and you will find lots of proof for this. This also is part of the reason why most terrorists of today are Muslims - the Quran's and Islam's underlying acceptance of the use of "any means" to win, and their/the Quran's culture for and glorifying of the use of murder and war.
088 40/37e: “- - - the plot of Pharaoh led to nothing but perdition (for him).” Wrong. We know from other places in the Quran, that the perdition is said to be drowning. But Ramses II (ca. 1279 - 1213 BC. Born ca.1303 BC) did not die by drowning, and on top of that he did not die until several years after the possible exodus in ca. 1235 BC - both according to science.
089 43/54b: "- - - truly were they (the people of Egypt*) a people rebellious (against Allah). (Definitely not a proved truth - only a not proved claim*.)" Allah was not a known god in Egypt around 1235 BC. You cannot rebel against something or someone you do not even know about. (Though of course Muhammad here meant Yahweh, and wrongly mixed him with Allah).
090 43/55: “- - - We (Allah*) drowned them all (= Pharaoh Ramses II and his people*).” At least Ramses II himself did not drown. He did not die from drowning, and he did not die until several years later (in 1213 BC). A main reason why Muslims want the Exodus to have happened much earlier - under pharaohs we do not know how died. But science is in little doubt - f.x. Encyclopedia Britannica does not write such things unconditionally if they are not sure.
Another juicy fact is that according to the Bible it was Yahweh who did this, not Allah.
##091 43/56: “And We (Allah*) made them a people of the past - - -”. Wrong. Neither Ramses II nor the people of Egypt became a people of the past around the year 1235 BC (the approximate year of the possible Exodus, according to science). That did not happen until much later – and the final doom came in 659 AD when the Arabs under Mu’awiya conquered the country and took over - forever (?). Muslims like to “explain” that “a people” mean the soldiers of Pharaoh. But the expression “a people” has a wider meaning than that.
092 44/23a: "(Allah said*) March forth with My servants (the Jews*) by night - - -". Naive and wanting on logic: What had to happen if the Jews had left stealthily and against the will of the mighty pharaoh like indicated here? An angry army had been hot on their heels the very next morning. And a marching army can march 2 - 3 times as fast as a large group of civilians strolling along together with their children and animals. They would be overtaken in hours.
093 44/23b: "(Allah said*) March forth with My servants by night - - -". According to the Bible (2. Mos. 12/31) it was the pharaoh who summoned Moses at night and sent the Jews away.
094 44/23c: "- - - My (Allah's*) servants - - -". In the claimed clear language in the Quran this expression may have several meanings - see 42/27b above. Here it means all Muslims (in reality all Jews, but the Quran claims they and Moses were Muslims - believe it if you are able to).
095 44/24: "And leave the sea a furrow (divided): for they (the Egyptians*) are a host (destined) to be drowned". According to the Bible this was not told on beforehand, it just happened. Besides it is meaningless - how could they (Moses and the Jews*) keep open or closed the sea?
096 44/25: "- - - they - - -". This refers to the drowned Egyptian - and also is a time anomaly.
097 44/25-28: “Thus (was their (pharaoh Ramses II and his men*) end)! - - -”. We know from other parts of the Quran that the end was drowning. Wrong, at least for Ramses II himself - he did not die by drowning (if he had done, you bet three religions had screamed about it!), and he only died years later (1213 BC) than the possible exodus in ca. 1235 BC according to science.
098 44/28: "- - - and We (Allah*) made other people inherit (the drowned Egyptians*) - - -". Wrong. There are no historical indications for that that not their own people inherited them - on the contrary, the reign of Ramses II was a stable period (and Ramses II's inheritor to the throne was his son Merneptah). But to claim that other people inherited them, is in line with Muhammad's often repeated claim about other cases where a people or a group of people disappeared - - - always because of punishment because of sins against Allah, according to Muhammad.
099 44/30a: "We (Allah*) delivered the Children of Israel from humiliating punishment - - -". According to the Bible the Jews had been reduced from honored guests to slaves over a period of 430 years since Joseph. In addition the pharaoh had started killing their male babies, because they had become so many that the Egyptians found them to be a threat and wanted to reduce their numbers.(This f.x. was the reason why the baby Moses was set afloat on the Nile in a desperate hope of saving him).
But a central point here is that according to the Bible it was Yahweh who helped them out, not Allah.
100 44/31: "- - - Pharaoh (Ramses II*) - - -". A time anomaly.
101 51/40a: “So We (Allah*) took him (Pharaoh Ramses II*) and his forces, and threw them into the sea (where they drowned*)”. For one thing they were not thrown into the sea, they went themselves (according to the Bible and not opposed by other places in the Quran) out on the dry sea bed, and then the water returned), but for another: At least Ramses II himself did not die by drowning and he also did not die until any years later (in 1213 BC - Exodus was around 1235 BC according to science).
102 69/9a: "- - - Pharaoh (Ramses II) - - -". The only pharaohs mentioned in the Quran, are the two connected to Moses - one just mentioned in connection to the baby Moses being saved from the Nile (likely Pharaoh Horemheb - ca.1320 - 1292 BC), and the one connected to the Exodus all the other times. The one connected to the Exodus according to science, is Ramses II. As we know Ramses did not drown, Islam tries to claim that the Exodus was much, earlier, under pharaohs we do not know how died. But for one thing numbers, etc. do not add up with an early Exodus, and for another science is little in doubt, and states pretty surely that if it ever happened, it happened around 1235 BC, which means under Ramses II (see f.x. Encyclopedia Britannica). (There are a few scientists who think Exodus happened a few years later, though, during the reign of the son if Ramses II, Merneptah - but later, not earlier like Islam wants it.)
103 69/9+10: “And Pharaoh, and those before him - - - (Allah*) punished them with an abundant Penalty.” The Quran tells that this penalty for the pharaoh was drowning, but Ramses II did not drown. Neither did he die until several years after the possible Exodus, according to science.
104 79/16: "- - - the sacred valley of Tuwa - - -". The Bible (2. Mos. 3/1) only tells it was near Mt. Horeb. As the Quran is not from a god, and as the Bible is the only source for information about Moses, from where did Muhammad get this extra piece of information?
105 79/17a: "- - - Pharaoh - - -". Always when the Quran talks about a Pharaoh, it is about the opponent of Moses, Pharaoh Ramses II. There is one exception only, and only indirectly: The baby Moses was picked up from the Nile by the wife of Pharaoh (in the Bible by his daughter - 2. Mos. 2/6). As according to the Bible this happened some 80 years before the Exodus, this pharaoh has got to be an earlier one (likely Pharaoh Horemheb - ca.1319 - 1292 BC). We may add that as we know Ramses II did not drown, it is normal for Islam/Muslim scholars to claim it was an earlier, but not specified pharaoh where we do not know the cause of his death. But science is in no doubt: If exodus took place, it was around 1235 BC = during the reign of Ramses II.
To complete the picture: There are a few scientists who believe Exodus happened - if it happened - not during the reign of Ramses II, but during the reign of his son and successor, Merneptah (also spelled Meremptah), but in that case Exodus happened even later than 1235 BC, and not earlier like Islam and Muslims want it to have happened (to place it under a pharaoh we do not know how died, and thus may have drowned - Merneptah ruled from 1213 BC to 1203 BC, and he did not drown).
106 79/18a: "Wouldst thou (Pharaoh Ramses II*) that thou shouldst be purified (from sin)?" In the Bible Moses did not talk about religion, only "Let my people go". From where is this extra information? Also see 79/16 just above.
107 79/19: "And that I (Moses*) guide thee (Pharaoh Ramses II*) to thy Lord (Allah*) - - -". This is not from the Bible - in the Bible Moses only tried to make Ramses II to "let my people go", not also to make him change religion. Also see 79/16 and 79/18a above.
108 79/20a: (YA5931): “Then did (Moses) show him (Pharaoh*) the Great Sign”. But nobody knows what the book refers to. The Quran (17/101) refers to 9 signs (the Bible 13 – the staff, white hand, and blood turned to water + 10 plagues), but none of them are indicated to be the Great Sign – they are on not too different levels (in the Bible it would have been the last, terrible plague, but that one is not mentioned in the Quran). More guesswork among Muslim scholars because of unclear language in the Quran.
109 79/21b: "- - - (guidance) - - -". The Quran indicates that Moses was a good Muslim, and that he had a book - a copy of the claimed and timeless "Mother Book" = similar to the Quran. Not much reliable guidance for Ramses II in such a book.
We add that there is no indication in the Bible for that Moses had a religious book. The only book mentioned, is "the Book of Covenant", in which Moses himself had written the short and original laws.
110 79/22: "- - - (Ramses II was) striving hard (against Allah)". According to the Bible, the involved god was Yahweh, not Allah.
111 79/24a: “(Pharaoh Ramses II*) Saying: ‘I am your Lord (in this connection: Your god*), most High’”. The pharaoh was not the “most high” god in the old Egypt. See 28/38a above.
112 79/24b: “(Pharaoh Ramses II*) Saying: ‘I am your Lord (in this connection: Your god*), most High’”. See 71/7b above.
The Quran here is contradicting reality. One knows the name of more than 2ooo gods (though some may be another name for the same god) from old Egypt. The names of pharaohs normally are not even included in such name lists, not to mention being top gods. They were not separate gods.
##On the other hand more or less all the early pharaohs were reckoned to be incarnations of the falcon god Horus. During the 5. dynasty (2494 - 2345 BC) this changed to an incarnation of the sun god Ra - and even later the god Amun coalesced with Ra and the pharaohs incarnations of Ra-Amun (or Amun-Ra). But not an incarnation of the after all most essential god, Ptah, and never - with a kind of exception for Pharaoh Akn Aton (who mainly accepted only the sun god - then named Aton (pharaoh 1372 - 1355 BC)) - an only god, like the pharaoh says in the Quran.
113 79/25: “But Allah did punish him (Pharaoh Ramses II*) - - -”. Wrong at least as for in this life. We know from other places in the Quran that the punishment is said to be drowning. But for one thing Ramses II did not die by drowning, and for another thing: He only died years later (in 1213 BC - Exodus was around 1235 BG according to science).
113 + 2599 = 2712 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).
94. EZRA (ca. 480 - 440 BC)
- Jewish priest, scholar, prophet, and rebuilder of the Temple of Jerusalem.
The name Ezra is short for Azaryahu, which means "God helps". He was a scholar in Babylon and lead the Jews back to Jerusalem after the 70 year diaspora around BC. In Jerusalem he led the rebuilding of the Temple.
We may add that the Jews returned from Persia to Jerusalem mainly in 2 "waves". The first one under Cyrus the Great (ca. 580 - 529 BC) and the second under Artaxerxes (464 - 423 BC). Ezra was part of the second one.
The Quran claims that the Jews said Ezra (in the Quran named Uzayr) was the son of Yahweh. This definitely is not true. Also Islam seems to admit this, but some Muslims claim that the Jews around Mecca/Medina said so. Also this is highly unlikely, as the Jews knew their scriptures. #########But if it is true, this in case proves that the Quran was made by someone living in the Mecca/Medina area, as this in case only was said in that area.
Muslims also claim that the OT was falsified (by Ezra) when it "had to be rewritten" when the Jews returned from Babylon. But for one thing not all Jews were deported to Babylon (f.x. 2. Kings 25/12), and you bet the ones who remained took care of their holy scriptures - religion is a comfort in difficult times. And for another thing also the Jews in exile had managed to keep some copies of the scriptures (f.x. Ezra "was a teacher well versed in the Laws of Moses" = the Books of Moses (Ezra 7/6) - which meant they had the books). And for a third: Jews lived in many countries also at that time, and in each and every synagogue, there always was and is at least one copy of the scriptures - in addition to what was owned by members of the congregations. The OT simply never was rewritten - there never was a reason for that. There simply never were any falsifications of any part of the Bible - as proved by science. But it is as said even better proved by Islam: If there had existed one single falsification, Islam had found it and screamed about it. Nobody has ever heard such a scream.
(As for NT Islam often claims this was falsified during the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Also this is wrong, as the agenda for that council is well known, and no falsifications were on that agenda. Besides: To make bishops falsify their holy book, is exactly as easy as to make ayatollahs falsify the Quran. Not to forget: How to make the different sects of Christianity (plus the Jews for OT) agree on exactly what and how to falsify in the Bible? - even if mainstream bishops should agree on falsifying things (which is a psychological impossibility as strong as the impossibility of making Muslim religious leaders falsify the Quran - and for the same reasons), all the other sect and many main stream believers had kept and believed in their scriptures. And how to make Jews and Christians - and Ezra - agree on what and how to falsify verses in OT which might point forward to Jesus? - the Jews were not even represented in Nicaea.)
Not to mention: How to falsify, and falsify identically and without contradictions, literally 100ooo or more scriptures and fragments (45ooo exist even today) of all kinds , letters, books, documents, etc. from, about, or referring to the Bible and spread over 3 continents? And how to eradicate the old words and insert falsified ones in older texts with exactly the same handwriting, in such a way that not even modern science is able to see the falsifications?
It is impossible not to see that Mohammad's claims on this point is wrong, once one starts thinking over the relevant facts.
And as the Bible is not falsified, this means that the Quran is falsified - #######it is not possible for both those books to be right.)
And finally: The Bible and the Quran are so totally different, that falsification is not a good enough explanation for all the many and fundamental differences - after all only one sentence of pitiful - in English - 6words (a sentence in the psalm 37/29: "- - - the righteous will inherit the land - - -") is the same. Only a full rewriting and re-editing may explain things. And then it is a question which of the two books which in case is original and which one is made up.
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001 2/255a: "There is no god but He (Allah*) - - -". (Also see 6/106b and 25/18a below). But:
- Both according to the Quran and to the Bible the old Jewish god (Yahweh) existed (though Muhammad mixed him up with Allah).
- Both according to the Quran and to the Bible Yahweh has proved his existence and his power many times, included via Jesus - there (according to both books if one or both of them tells the truth on this point) is no doubt about his existence and his power.
- The Quran claims that Allah and Yahweh is the same god. But this is not true, as the teachings fundamentally are far too different, especially if you compare the Quran with NT and the New Covenant via Jesus - a covenant Muslims never are told about by their imams or mullahs (f.x. Luke 22/20). The same goes for the underlying ethics and moral (parts of it is very twisted in the Quran compared to the most basic rule;"do onto others what you want others do onto you") and the stressing of the value of empathy (empathy hardly is to be found in the Quran, and non-existing towards victims and non-Muslims), etc., not to mention that this also goes for the view on thieving (looting), lying (f.x. al-Taqiyya - the lawful lie), killing, etc. The only possible exception is if the god is strongly schizophrenic. (See separate chapter about this in tp://www.1000mistakes.com. Demand proofs from the next Muslim telling you that Yahweh is the same god as Allah.
- The Quran tries to explain away the differences between the Bible and the Quran, and thus the differences in the teachings, by claiming - as normal for Muhammad without a single document or proof - that the Bible is falsified. But this is not true, as science long since has proved there is no falsification. May be some mistakes - f.x. in Genesis - but no falsification. What is even more convincing it the fact that also Islam has proved the same, and most strongly, by not being able to find one single documented falsification among all the tens of thousands relevant old manuscripts.(There exist some 300 copies or fragments of the Gospels older than 610 AD, 13ooo other manuscripts or fragments from other parts of the Bible and 32ooo other documents/fragments with quotes or references from the Bible from before 610 AD (before that there was no reason to falsify anything to expel Islamic teaching) - parts of this also older than 325 AD and council that year in Nicaea. (The numbers can vary some from one source to another, but around these ones.) All have exactly the same and invariable texts within minor variations normal for hand-copied documents, and not one shows any traces of being tampered with - falsified - in ways that modern science can find. And modern science is good at finding falsifications, as it a frequent kind of crime. No scratching out of text, no other tries of removing old text, no putting in new words, no new words written with another kind of ink, no new words with another handwriting, etc. Islam also never even has tried to explain how it could be possible to make identical falsifications in 45ooo and more different manuscripts spread over the whole known world and wider - and how it was possible for Jews and Christians to agree on identical falsifications. Muslims often claim the falsifications were done at the mentioned meeting of bishops in Nicaea in 325 AD. But for one thing the agenda for that meeting is well known and nothing like this was on that agenda. For another ting a lot of manuscripts are older than 325 AD exist - not one of them falsified. And for a third: It is exactly as difficult to get bishops change the Bible, as it is to make ayatollahs change the Quran. (Muslims also claim that the OT was falsified when it "had to be rewritten" when the Jews returned from Babylon. But for one thing not all Jews were deported to Babylon (f.x. 2. Kings 25/12), and you bet the ones who remained took care of their holy scriptures - religion is a comfort in difficult times. And for another thing also the Jews in exile had managed to keep some copies of the scriptures (f.x. Ezra "was a teacher well versed in the Laws of Moses" = the Books of Moses (Ezra 7/6) - which meant they had the books). And for a third: Jews lived in many countries also at that time, and in each and every synagogue, there always was and is at least one copy of the scriptures - in addition to what was owned by members of the congregations. The OT simply never was rewritten - there never was a reason for that.) There simply never were any falsifications of any part of the Bible - as proved by science. But it is as said even better proved by Islam: If there had existed one single falsification, Islam had found it and screamed about it. Nobody has ever heard such a scream.)
- NB: Another point concerning Ezra is that a good Muslim like Jesus hardly studied falsified books - this even more so if he got his copy from Allah/Heaven like Islam tells all prophets received. It is very clear that Jesus read from the books in the Temple and in the synagogues he visited, which means that those books were not falsified - if they had been the good Muslim Jesus had seen that they differed MUCH from his own copy of "the Mother of the Book"/the Quran, as there are enormous differences between the old Jewish scriptures/OT (and NT) and the Quran. As Jesus did not protest to the texts in the synagogues, this thus means they were not falsified. This means that they must have been falsified later. This again means that also this proves it was not Ezra who falsified OT. Muslims and Islam are very good at finding "explanations" for errors and difficult points in the Quran, but all too often overlook or "forget" aspects with the question or with related facts which make their "explanation" impossible. Go looking and you will find this ever so often in Islamic debate and literature, also from persons so well educated that it is impossible they do not know those other killing aspects and/or facts. But then dishonesty is an accepted working tool by Islam - al Taqiyya (the lawful lie) just to mention one kind of lawful dishonesty.
- OT simply was not falsified by Ezra. And as the good Muslim Jesus studied and taught from OT/the old Jewish scriptures, OT cannot have been falsified until after Jesus had finished his teaching. And how to make f.x. Jews and Christians agree on what to falsify f.x. about Messiah, fundamental moral codes, the description of Paradise compared to Allah's Paradise, etc. afterwards? Plus the known older copies are identical to the ones younger than Jesus.
We repeat because this is so essential:
Some Muslims as mentioned claim Ezra falsified OT, but in addition to other facts:
THERE IS ONE STRONG FACT CONNECTED TO JESUS AND THE OTHER OLD JEWISH PROPHETS: ACCORDING TO THE QURAN THEY ALL WERE GOD MUSLIMS - AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR THE ONES AFTER EZRA (around 480 - 440 BC) IF THEIR CLAIMED HOLY BOOKS FROM ALLAH WERE FALSIFIED. THUS THE CLAIMED FALSIFICATION OF ALSO OT CANNOT HAVE HAPPENED UNTIL AFTER JESUS (F.X. EZRA COULD NOT HAVE FALSIFIED OT, LIKE SOME MUSLIMS CLAIM - IF HE HAD, JESUS HAD RECEIVED WRONG INFORMATION AND HAD BEEN NO GOOD MUSLIM). THIS IN ADDITION TO THAT THE BOOKS WERE SENT DOWN (DIRECTLY) FROM ALLAH TO THE PROPHETS, ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, AND ERRORS IN THEM THEREFORE SHOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE. ALL THE OLD GOOD MUSLIM PROPHETS INCLUDED JESUS THUS MUST HAVE HAD CORRECT HOLY BOOKS - THE OLD JEWISH SCRIPTURES/OT. IF NOT F.X. JESUS HAD BEEN TEACHING WRONG THINGS, WHICH HE DID NOT DO ACCORDING TO THE QURAN (and if the scrolls he read from in the synagogues had differed from what he received from Heaven, he had told about it - if not he was a bad Muslim). THE ONLY POSSIBLE CONCLUSION HERE IS THAT ALSO NO PART OF THE OLD SCRIPTURES - OT - CAN HAVE BEEN FALSIFIED UNTIL AFTER JESUS TIME = AFTER THE YEAR 33 AD.
B U T T H E R E E X I S T P L E N T Y O F M A N U S C R I P T S A N D F R A G M E N T S O L D E N O U G H T O P R O V E T H A T O T W A S N O T S I M I L A R T O T H E Q U R A N A T T H A T T I M E !!! I T W A S S I M I L A R T O T H E S C R I P T U R E S O F T O D A Y !!! (Look f.x. at the Qumran scrolls - the Biblical parts of them are from 150 - 50 BC, and thus identical to the ones Jesus used - - - and identical to what you find in today's OT (except minor differences normal for hand copied scriptures)).
In addition there is the problem: How in case make Jews and Christians and different sects agree on what new texts to use when they falsified (parts of) the Quran into OT??? And how to make ALL Jews spread over large parts of the world unprotestingly accept the new and falsified holy scriptures - and destroy all the old copies so thoroughly that not one piece of any of them has been found later? This in addition to the claimed falsification of NT and all the impossibilities and improbabilities which have to be "explained" away concerning the claimed falsification of NT.
Not to forget: It was and is exactly as easy to make bishops, etc. agreeing on falsification of the Bible as it was/is to make Muslim religious leaders agree on falsifying the Quran - and for similar reasons.
And another small but strong fact: The Bible and the Quran are so totally different - only one short sentence is the same (in Psalm 37/29) + the Bible has 4 times as much texts as the Quran, that falsification would not be enough - the book had to be totally rewritten. (And if had that happened say around 50 AD, from where the writers get the mostly correct information about old history, etc?)
T H I S I S O N E O F T H E C L A I M S M U H A M M A D M A D E U P.
002 9/30a: "The Jews call 'Uzayr (Ezra*) a son of God - - -". This is flatly wrong - Ezra was a central person in the rebuilding after the Jews returned from Babylon, but there never was even a whisper about that he was the son of Yahweh. Now, Muslims admits this, but claim that the Jews around Yathrib (Medina) said so. We have not been able to find out if this is true or just another al-Taqiyya, but it also is totally irrelevant: Any god making a Quran had known the truth and not made a blemish like this. Then who made the Quran?
But it is relevant for another question: Why do Muslims mean that it should mean anything what Jews in tiny Medina in the middle of nearly nowhere meant in this case? - did the maker of the Quran live there and get his information by way of an Arabism from the locals? In that case he was no universal, omniscient god.
003 9/30d: “- - - the Christians call Christ the son of God - - - (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old (the Jews*) used to say". Wrong: As mentioned in 9/30a above, the Jews never used to say so - that there was a son of God. If the Jews at Yathrib/Medina said so, this was something local. As they had the old scriptures it is very unlikely they believed f.x. Ezra was son of Yahweh, but we have found no reliable source saying anything about this. But to repeat ourselves: Any god making a Quran had known the truth and not made a blemish like this. Then who made the Quran?
004 17/6a: "Then We (Allah*) grant you the Return as against them - - -". This may refer to the return permitted by the Persian king Cyrus after 70 years in Babylon (Ezra 1/2-3). Then in case both warnings were before the return, but it would not be the first time Muhammad/the Quran was wrong on history.
##005 38/49b: "- - - the righteous - - -". The Muslims - all good persons the Quran uses from the Bible, included Jesus, were good Muslims.
##As also Jesus is claimed to have been a good Muslim, the claimed falsification of the Bible must have happened later - after the good Muslim(?) Jesus had learnt his OT and Gospels. Muslims often claim that it was Ezra - 400 years before Jesus - who falsified the OT, but if that had been the truth, the claimed good and correctly believer (according to the Quran) Jesus studied a falsified OT (and a falsified Gospel? - in spite of the fact that Gospel did not and could not exist until later). We also would like to see the combined Jewish/Christian commission working on this falsification job and trying to agree on what to falsify and what not - especially about Jesus.
Another point is that a good Muslim like Jesus hardly studied falsified books - this even more so if he got his copy from Allah/Heaven like Islam tells all prophets received. It is very clear that Jesus read from the books in the Temple and in the synagogues he visited, which means that those books were not falsified - if they had been the good Muslim Jesus had seen that they differed MUCH from his own copy of "the Mother of the Book"/the Quran, as there are enormous differences between the old Jewish scriptures/OT (and NT) and the Quran. As Jesus did not protest to the texts in the synagogues, this thus means they were not falsified. This means that they must have been falsified later. This again means that also this proves it was not Ezra who falsified OT. Muslims and Islam are very good at finding "explanations" for errors and difficult points in the Quran, but all too often overlook or "forget" aspects with the question or with related facts which make their "explanation" impossible. Go looking and you will find this ever so often in Islamic debate and literature, also from persons so well educated that it is impossible they do not know those other killing aspects and/or facts. But then dishonesty is an accepted working tool by Islam - al Taqiyya (the lawful lie) just to mention one kind of lawful dishonesty.
OT simply was not falsified by Ezra. And as the good Muslim Jesus studied and taught from OT/the old Jewish scriptures, OT cannot have been falsified until after Jesus had finished his teaching. And how to make f.x. Jews and Christians agree on what to falsify f.x. about Messiah, fundamental moral codes, the description of Paradise compared to Allah's Paradise, etc. afterwards?
5 + 2712 = 2717 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).
95. "FATHER OF FLAMES"
"The Father of Flames" you meet in surah 111. A number of Muslim scholars mean that this surah is among the points which cannot be from Allah, because no god would make texts like this.
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001 111/1: "- - - the Father of Flame - - -". This is about an uncle of Muhammad. His name was 'Abd al-'Uzza, but as he had a bit reddish complexion, he got the nick-name Abu Lahab - literal meaning "he of flames", "everyday" meaning "Father of Flames". He strongly opposed Muhammad's new religion, and there were some rows, to say the least of it - - - and it seems that Allah had to help Muhammad, like in other of Muhammad's family quarrels. (Even most Muslim scholars agree that this surah does not belong in a holy(?) book).
002 111/1-5: "Perish the hands of the Father of Flames! Perish he! No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains! Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of blazing Flame! His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - as fuel! - A twisted rope of palm-leaf fiber round her (own) neck." This is said against Muhammad's uncle Abu Lahab, called Father of Flame because of reddish skin.(See 111/1 just above) The scholars say that for one thing a surah like this does not belong in a holy book, and for another is not worthy of a god, and consequently must be wrong. (Also f.x. some verses concerning Muhammad's private affairs have a doubtful reputation among some scholars.) Many Muslim scholars as said say that this surah is not from Allah, which in case means it is Muhammad who is speaking.
By the way: Islam claims that the Quran is a copy from "the Mother of the Book" in Heaven, revered by Allah. Are you able to visualize an omniscient god able to revere texts like this?
2 + 2717 = 2719 comments (+ basic comments/introductions).
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This work was upload with assistance of M. A. Khan, editor of islam-watch.org and the author of "Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism, and Slavery".