Allah in the Quran, Chapter 21

 

THE VALUE(?) OF PRAYERS TO ALLAH

 

001 If Allah predestines absolutely everything in everybody's lives, and before they are born - 5 months before according to Hadiths - and if it is correct that nobody and nothing can change those predestinations, prayers cannot have any effect in Islam. If everything is predestined and nothing can change the predestinations, also prayers can change noting. Muhammad needed the claim about full predestination to make it easier to get warriors - but it has consequences his naive and uneducated and wishful early followers were unable to see - and followers of today refuse to see.

002 We are fully aware of that the Quran tells man has free will in addition to that Allah predestines everything, but this is a plainly and clearly wrong. When 2 claims are mutually excluding each other, maximum one of them can be true, also for a god. It simply is a bluff Muhammad used. The claim is physically and logically and even theoretically impossible, but Muhammad also needed a way to warn his people against disobedience (acts of free will negative for Muhammad) - Allah would punish it. The old Arabs were too primitive and little educated to see the impossibility, and today Islam cannot afford to admit it is impossible, even though they see it is so.

003 THE TIMES FOR PRAYING IN ISLAM.

(Translated from Swedish)

  1. Fajr: Before dawn.
  2. Zuhr: Shortly after dinner time.
  3. 'Asr: During the afternoon.
  4. Maghrib: Shortly after sundown.
  5. 'Isha: After night has fallen.

004 Allah forgot(?) to tell how to arrange things in the high north and south - and Muhammad hardly knew there was a problem. (Any god had known - then who made the Quran?) Muslims later had to make rules for this themselves.

005 More serious: For Allah the fixed prayers were so essential, that he made it one of the pillars in Islam. Yahweh on the other hand, was/is totally uninterested in such formalism - pray when there was a need or a wish. One of the many strong proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god - if one or both exists.

006 Most serious: The differences in weight laying on formalities and fixed times and numbers concerning prayers between Yahweh and Allah, is one more of the at least 100% profs for that the two are not the same god.

007 As serious: What is the rationale and the effect of prayers in Islam, if Allah long time ago has predestined everything, and done so according to his Plan which nobody and nothing can change? If nothing can change it, also prayers have no effect and no value.

008 A sample of prayer times:

The prayer times do not follow the watch, but the sun. The times are exactly computed, but there are plenty of margins both ways - Allah is not too difficult. These samples are for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 13. Feb. 2011, and thus the names are a little different (but a rather similar pronunciation except the first one). The times vary some from day to day and from place to place.

Name of prayer: Subuh Zahor Azar Mahgrib Isyak

Time: 06.05 13.26 16.36 19.27 20.36

Finally: Always when you read the Quran, Hadiths, and other Islamic books, you should remember that Muhammad accepted the use of and himself used dishonesty in many forms in words and deeds. Even if the names are younger, it was he who institutionalized dishonesty like al-Taqiyya (the lawful lie), Kitman (the lawful half-truth), Hilah (the lawful pretending/circumventing), the use of deceit ("war is deceit" - and "everything" is war), betrayal (f.x. the peace delegation from Khaybar), and even the disuse of oaths (2/225, 5/89, 16/91, 66/2 - and the star case 3/54 (if Allah could cheat, cheating is ok)), which also includes the disuse of words and promises, as they are weaker than oaths = when oaths can be disused, so can words and promises. On top of this it is very clear from the Quran and all other central Islamic books, that Muhammad also liked respect and power and women. Combine these lusts with his acceptance of and personal use of dishonesty - even the gravest kinds: How reliable is that kind of men normally? - and how true and reliable are their never proved claims and tales?

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009 2/153b: “Seek help with patient Perseverance and Prayer, for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.” Keep struggling and the enemy gives in - non-Muslims should never forget that this is hammered into all Muslims - - - and too often correct, especially when fighting democracies, as democracies have difficulties keeping on struggling for a long time, if they are not forced to - there always are fractions who want the struggle or fighting to be terminated.

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c - a strong one - you get something thought-provoking. (And relevant here: Muslims often are taught that a question or problem which really can have only one valid solutions, can have 2 or more true and correct solutions - Islam is forced to teach this, because if not many of the mistakes and contradictions in the Quran become too obvious. But this ONLY is true if parallel true solutions are possible. F.x. in cases where 2 or more possible solutions are mutually excluding each other, maximum 1 of the mutually excluding ones can be true. Islam teaches differently. It should be a bit thought provoking for Muslims, that just this "small" difference in theoretical thinking and teaching, was one of the reasons (there were several of course) for why Europe and the West exploded into the Technical Revolution, while the Muslim area stagnated). Two star examples are: 1): Full predestination is not possible even for an omnipotent god to combine with even the smallest piece of free will for man - the two are mutually excluding. Islam is teaching differently. 2): The same for full and unchangeable predestination long time before, combined with any claimed effect of prayers - the two are mutually excluding each other. Islam is teaching differently.)

Another fact: Today it is easy by means of statistical methods to check if prayers have any effect. (Let f.x. 1ooo persons each pray for one among 1ooo unknown persons sick or in other ways in need. compare the result after some time with a similar group of 1ooo who has not been prayed for, and see if there is a difference. If there is a positive difference, this would be a strong indication or perhaps even a proof for something - a proof Islam strongly needs, as it has not any proof for a single of its central claims. But it has not even tried to make such a test. Why?)

010 2/186d: "I (Allah*) listen to the prayers of every suppliant when he calleth on Me - - -". Only if Allah exists. And if he in addition is a god. And if he is behind the Quran. And if the Quran tells the full and only truth about this.

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c - a strong one - you get something thought-provoking. (And relevant here: Muslims often are taught that a question or problem which really can have only one valid solutions, can have 2 or more true and correct solutions - Islam is forced to teach this, because if not many of the mistakes and contradictions in the Quran become too obvious. But this ONLY is true if parallel true solutions are possible. F.x. in cases where 2 or more possible solutions are mutually excluding each other, maximum 1 of the mutually excluding ones can be true. Islam teaches differently. It should be a bit thought provoking for Muslims, that just this "small" difference in theoretical thinking and teaching, was one of the reasons (there were several of course) for why Europe and the West exploded into the Technical Revolution, while the Muslim area stagnated). Two star examples are: 1): Full predestination is not possible even for an omnipotent god to combine with even the smallest piece of free will for man - the two are mutually excluding. Islam is teaching differently. 2): The same for full and unchangeable predestination long time before, combined with any claimed effect of prayers - the two are mutually excluding each other. Islam is teaching differently.)

Another fact: Today it is easy by means of statistical methods to check if prayers have any effect. (Let f.x. 1ooo persons each pray for one among 1ooo unknown persons sick or in other ways in need. compare the result after some time with a similar group of 1ooo who has not been prayed for, and see if there is a difference. If there is a positive difference, this would be a strong indication or perhaps even a proof for something - a proof Islam strongly needs, as it has not any proof for a single of its central claims. But it has not even tried to make such a test. Why?)

011 2/187d: "- - - (Allah*) forgave you - - -". Wrong. Allah can forgive nobody unless he for one exists and for two is a god, neither of which is documented.

But can at all Allah forgive? - even if he should happen to be a god? The Quran MANY places states that Allah predestines absolutely everything, and he predestines it according to his Plan, which nobody and nothing can change. And he predestines it long time before it is going to happen - he f.x. according to Hadiths predestines whether you are going to end in Hell or Heaven already when you are a 4 months old fetus = 5 months before you are born. Now the Quran tells that man also has free will - a necessary claim not to make Allah very unjust when he sends a person to Hell for sins (or for that case rewards him for good deeds) - but those are two things which are impossible even for an omniscient and omnipotent god to combine. Give man even the slightest degree of free will, and the laws of chaos inexorably finish off predestination - the god can make things happen by adjusting this and that, but the moment man gets the possibility to change his mind once more about something, full predestination is gone - and the same is full predestination. Even Islam admits that full predestination is impossible to combine with free will of man (some claim that partly free will is possible, but that is wrong - the laws of chaos is very clear on this point; the so-called "butterfly effect" kicks in).

We quote (A6/141 - comment to verse 6/149): “In other words, the real relationship between Allah’s knowledge of the future (and, therefore, the ineluctability of what is to happen in the future) on one side, and man’s free will, on the other – two propositions which, on the face of it, seem to contradict one another – is beyond man’s comprehension; but since both are postulated by Allah, both must be true". But here Islam is leaving religion, and entering pure mysticism. In the non-material realms of life there are things impossible even for an omniscient and omnipotent god. Proofs for this in 6/149a above.

If there is complete predestination in Islam like the Quran states as absolute several places in the book, forgiving as well as prayers can have no effect in this religion - everything is already decided and nothing can be changed in Allah’s long since predestined Plan - and to forgive means to change the predestination/Plan. (You of course may claim that also the forgiving was predestined, but then it is not forgiving any more, but theater.) To claim the opposite just is mysticism, not religion.

We further quote 67/9c: "(Non-Muslims said*): '- - - ye (Muslims*) are in nothing but an egregious delusion". As for the Quran, all the mistaken facts and other errors, the contradictions, the low quality of the book as literature except parts of the linguistics (polished some 250 years from ca. 650 to ca. 900 AD by the best scholars in Islam), the unclear language (included the "different ways of reading" unclear points), etc. prove with mathematical certainty that the book is not from any god. As for Allah he of course could have existed in spite of the fact that the Quran is a made up book - made up by dark forces or by (a?) sick or not sick human(s) (the only 3 remaining alternatives). But when you add Allah's background - he originally was the pagan god al-Lah (sometimes named Allah) which Muhammad simply dressed up, and without the slightest proof claimed he was the real god and the only god. Then you add Muhammad himself - a man who wanted respect and power, not to mention riches for more power - and women - and a man who did not hide that he believed in the use of dishonesty to reach a goal (he lied even in the Quran - f.x. the "explanation" that nobody would believe anyhow, even if Allah had proved himself by making some miracles; Muhammad was too intelligent and knew too much about people to believe in that claim himself. And there were al-Taqiyya (the lawful lie), Kitman (the lawful half-truth), and Hilah (the lawful pretending/circumventing), even though they were not formalized until later. And not to forget "War is deceit" - "war is betrayal", and "break your word/promise/oat if that gives a better result - pay expiation later if necessary" (2/225, 5/89, 16/91, 66/2 - and the star case 3/54 (if Allah can cheat, cheating is ok - but how much is then cheating in the Quran?)). (For some reason or other Islam and its Muslims seldom claim that Islam is the religion of honesty.)

Add this and add Muhammad's unreliability and low morality (easy to see in the Quran if you skip the glorification and read the reality), the fact that neither Muhammad nor Allah ever was able to prove anything at all of any essence concerning Islam or Allah, add the fact that Allah has not provably manifested himself one single time neither during the life of Muhammad, nor before, nor afterwards in any way - numbers of claims, but not one single proved case. The only place Allah ever manifested himself, was in the mouth of Muhammad. Add the fact that both science and even more so Islam (they have searched harder) have delivered so strong circumstantial and empirical proofs for that the Bible is not falsified, that it practically is a mathematical proof (45ooo old scriptures : 0 proved falsification in reality = a mathematical proof) - and that thus Allah's claimed history disappears, as he is not the same god as Yahweh (the teachings and everything are fundamentally and morally too different) - yes, not only disappears, but his book is proved to be made up and wrong.

Add all this, and you end up with a probability for his existence far below one to a million. The circumstantial and empirical proofs for that he does not exist, are so strong that it practically is a mathematical certainty.

Then finally add the Muhammad's and Islam's partly immoral moral code, their partly unethical ethical code, their very immoral code of war and terror, their code for dishonesty, betrayal, etc., their partly unjust judicial code, their political code (apartheid/fascism/Nazism), and the Quran's cultural code (f.x. knowledge = knowledge related to Islam only), and you end up with such a strong empirical proofs for that if Allah after all exists, he is no good and/or benevolent god, that also these in practice are so strong that they are to be classified together with mathematical proofs in strength and reliability.

Combine all this and there just is one conclusion possible: The chances for that this claimed god can forgive, by far is less than one to a million. Far less. (And the same goes for that he f.x. can punish or reward or forgive, or for that prayers to him can have any effect - for the same reasons: Even if the infinitesimal chance for that he exists should happen to be a reality - even if he perhaps is totally different from what is described in the Quran, f.x. he may be one from the dark forces - his predestined Plan cannot be changed.)

012 2/226c: "- - - He (Allah*) is Oft-Forgiving - - -". Allah can forgive nothing unless he really exists and in addition is a god - none of which is ever proved.

Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, which according to the Quran is something nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

013 2/238a: (YA271): “- - - the Middle Prayer - - -.” Muslim authorities differ as to the correct meaning, as the Arab expression “al Salat al wusta” as well may mean “the best or most excellent prayer” and thus may indicate the Asr prayer in the middle of the afternoon, not the one in the middle of the day. Clear language?

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

014 2/238b: (YA271): “- - - the Middle Prayer - - -.” Incompatible with the Bible. The Bible neither have fixed times for prayers, nor a fixed minimum number for such - which it should have had as the 5 prayers a day are essential to Allah - and thus also the Bible should have if Yahweh and Allah had been the same god. Q.e.d.

015 2/277b: "Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord". Well, this only to remind you that the Quran contains lots of nice claims and promises - you find plenty if you look in the book - but Muhammad was able to prove not one single of them. All was just words - included some fast ones and many which sounds like cheap ones - - - plus a lot wrong ones.

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

016 3/38b: "O My (Zakariyya's*) Lord (Allah*)! Grant onto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!" Not from the Bible, though it is said there that he prayed for a child/son.

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

017 3/38c: "- - - Thou (Allah*) art He that heareth prayer!" Even if we omit the fact that a Jewish priest - Zechariah was a priest in the Temple in Jerusalem - hardly would pray to Allah, but to Yahweh, there remains one fact: Allah only could hear prayers if he existed and if he in addition was a god. There only are Muhammad's claims for this - and Muhammad is not the most reliable of witnesses.

018 3/43b: "O Mary! Worship thy Lord (here claimed to be Allah*) devoutly: prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down". This is not from the Bible. As the Quran with all its errors is from no god, from where did Muhammad get this information?

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

Also: The Jews did not use prostration.

####019 3/145c: "- - - the term being fixed as by writing”. Everything is predestined by Allah and in accordance with his unchangeable Plan - also your death. By the way: As Allah's Plan is impossible to change, there is no use praying to him or do good or bad deeds, as what is predestined cannot be changed. This is one of the Quran's basic contradictions in the Quran and in Islam: Allah predestines everything long time beforehand - according to Hadiths f.x. your destination in the claimed next life (Hell or Heaven) is predestined 5 months before you are even born - and according to an unchangeable Plan. But all the same you should pray to Allah for a better life and for acceptance to paradise, etc. etc. Where is the logic? If everything is predestined, prayers can have absolutely no effect. And if prayers have effect and can change things, predestination and a divine Plan are not true. Predestination combined with effect of prayers is as impossible as predestination combined with free will of man - even for a god. It is anybody's guess why Muslims do not see this.

020 3/147b: "Our (Muslims'*) Lord (Allah*)! Forgive us our sins - - -". Even if Allah should happen to be a god, he cannot forgive if that is contra to his claimed predestined Plan - the prayer then is a waste of time and effort. And if he has predestined forgiving and put it into his Plan long ago, prayer is not necessary as forgiving already is decided. If predestination is true like the Quran claims many times, prayer never has an effect in Islam - a fact strongly contradicting the Quran's never documented claims.

##021 3/157c: “And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass”. This only may - may - be true if Allah exist and is a god, and if the non-Muslims on top of this believe in a non-existing god - if their god (f.x. Yahweh) exists, he may be able to outdo Allah. (Especially if Allah in reality is a dressed-up and made up pagan god only - and he was a pagan Arab god before Muhammad took him over and renamed him slightly. Not to mention if he is a dressed up something from the dark forces.

Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, something which according to the Quran nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

022 3/157d: "- - - forgiveness - - -". Allah only can forgive if he exists and in addition is a god.

Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or react to a prayer - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner, something which according to the Quran is something nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

023 3/159d: "- - - ask for (Allah's) forgiveness - - -". To no avail unless Allah really exists and is a god. If not he cannot forgive.

Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, which according to the Quran is something nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

####024 4/32b: "- - - but ask Allah for His bounty". Why? If Allah has predestined everything, prayers are a waste of time - nobody and nothing can change Allah's Plan according to the Quran.

This in reality is one more - but never mentioned - utmost severe contradiction in the Quran: If Allah has predestined everything according to his unchangeable Plan, like the Quran states several places, it is cheating and a parody to tell Muslims that prayers for betterments or forgiving may have an effect.

025 4/43c: “Approach not prayers with a mind befogged (drunk*) - - - nor in a state of ceremonial impurity - - -”. One of the points behind the sharia laws.

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

026 4/64g: "- - - asked Allah's forgiveness - - -". To what avail is such a request, if it is true that Allah predestines everything according to his unchangeable Plan? As everything is predestined according to an unchangeable Plan, prayers can have no effect - the Plan is unchangeable.

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c - a strong one - you get something thought-provoking. (And relevant here: Muslims often are taught that a question or problem which really can have only one valid solutions, can have 2 or more true and correct solutions - Islam is forced to teach this, because if not many of the mistakes and contradictions in the Quran become too obvious. But this ONLY is true if parallel true solutions are possible. F.x. in cases where 2 or more possible solutions are mutually excluding each other, maximum 1 of the mutually excluding ones can be true. Islam teaches differently. It should be a bit thought provoking for Muslims, that just this "small" difference in theoretical thinking and teaching, was one of the reasons (there were several of course) for why Europe and the West exploded into the Technical Revolution, while the Muslim area stagnated). Two star examples are: 1): Full predestination is not possible even for an omnipotent god to combine with even the smallest piece of free will for man - the two are mutually excluding. Islam is teaching differently. 2): The same for full and unchangeable predestination long time before, combined with any claimed effect of prayers - the two are mutually excluding each other. Islam is teaching differently.)

Another fact: Today it is easy by means of statistical methods to check if prayers have any effect. (Let f.x. 1ooo persons each pray for one among 1ooo unknown persons sick or in other ways in need. compare the result after some time with a similar group of 1ooo who has not been prayed for, and see if there is a difference. If there is a positive difference, this would be a strong indication or perhaps even a proof for something - a proof Islam strongly needs, as it has not any proof for a single of its central claims. But it has not even tried to make such a test. Why?)

Or is this one more of the many contradictions in the Quran? - a most serious one even?

Also see 4/43h above.

As for forgiving from Allah: See 2/187d above.

027 4/64h: "- - - asked Allah's forgiveness - - -". Only 2 can forgive - the victim and a god. Thus in cases where Allah - if he exists - is not the victim, he cannot forgive unless he is a real god.

Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, which according to the Quran is something nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

028 4/101a: "When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for the fear that the unbelievers may attack you: for the unbelievers are unto you open enemies". You do not find similar in the Bible - especially to Jesus and the NT unbelievers were not automatically enemies.

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

029 4/103b: "- - - set up regular prayers: for such prayers are enjoined on believers on stated times". The 5 fixed prayers are one of the pillars of Islam. If Yahweh had meant the number and times of prayers were of any essence to him, he had enjoined it on the Jews and Christians. But such rules are not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Because they are so essential in the Quran, but completely of no interest to Yahweh - he says pray when you want or need - this is one of the real strong proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. (And a curiosa here: If Allah has no connection to the old Jewish god Yahweh, Abraham and Ishmael and the others are not part of Islam. Well, this in case is no surprise - there are more indications for the same.)

As for prayers in Islam also see 2/187d, 4/43h, and 4/64g above.

030 4/111a: "- - - earn sin - - -". How can anyone earn sin if it is Allah who predestines everything everyone does, like the Quran claims many places? Predestination actually is one of the cornerstones of the Quran, not to mention for Muhammad's recruiting of warriors. Muhammad actually placed more stress on predestination in later years. (On the other hand full predestination like the Quran claims many places, is impossible to combine with the claim that man has free will (and thus are responsible for his deeds) or f.x. with the claim that prayers can have any effect).

031 4/162g: "- - - those (Jews*) who establish regular prayer and practice regular charity and believe in Allah and the Last Day: to them shall We (the god*) soon give a great reward". Also Jews may come to Paradise - - - if not this verse from 626 AD is abrogated (made invalid) by later verses. Though you will meet Muslims saying this is about believing Jews from before they learnt about the Quran (Allah often does not punish sins the sinner did not know was a sin), even if it is written in present tense, and thus counts for later Jews. (Another unclear point.)

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

032 4/162i: "- - - regular prayers - - -". 5 prayers a day: One of the pillars for Allah and Islam, of no interest for Yahweh in the Bible. One of the so essential and deep differences between the two books that this alone prove that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god - and then there are all the other proofs in addition.

033 5/6b: “When ye prepare for prayer, wash (face, hands, lower arms, feet till ankles, and rub your head*) - - - if you are in a state of impurity, bathe (in reality wash – Hadiths tell Muhammad used 3-4 liters of water for a “bath”, and that only means wash) your whole body. If - - - you have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand and earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands.” The rules for cleanliness did make the Muslims a somewhat cleaner people than many others, but that was a side effect, not the intention. The main thing was the formal, ceremonial cleanliness, not the physical cleanliness. And one normal source of becoming formally unclean, was – and is – women. Women have low value as humans in the Quran.

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

034 5/6c: “When ye prepare for prayer, wash (face, hands, lower arms, feet till ankles, and rub your head*) - - - if you are in a state of impurity, bathe (in reality wash – Hadiths tell Muhammad used 3-4 liters of water for a “bath”, and that only means wash) your whole body. If - - - you have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand and earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands.” The formal cleanliness was essential for Allah. This you do not find in the NT - Jesus even told that it was not what was outside a person who sullied him, but what came out of him - his words and deeds. Totally different points of view at least on outside cleanliness - another indication for that Yahweh and Allah were/are not the same god.

And some irony: Take a look at all words and orders, etc. which came out from Muhammad, and think over what Jesus here said.

##035 5/12e: "I (Allah*) am with you (the Jews*): if ye (but) establish regular Prayers - - -". There is no demand, request or even mentioning of a fixed number of prayers of fixed times for prayers in the Bible. As this is so essential to Allah that it is one of the pillars of Islam, but of no interest at all for Yahweh - pray when there is a reason or when you feel for it - the 5 fixed prayers of the Quran is one of the absolute proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

036 5/40f: "He (Allah*) forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punish whom He pleaseth - - -". Whereas the Christian god according to the Bible forgives anyone who regret honestly and tries to make amends, and punishes only those who deserve it. The same god? Guess.

Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, something which according to the Quran is something nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

####037 5/91b: "- - - prayer - - -". What is really the mission of prayers in Islam? As Allah already has predestined everything according to his Plan which nobody and nothing can change, there is no meaning in praying and no possible effect of it.

038 6/72a: "To establish regular prayers - - -". This with 5 - or another number - of prayers a day at regular times is something you do not find in the Bible neither in OT nor in NT. There you pray when you feel for it or when there is a reason. This fact that for Allah the fixed prayers are so essential that it is one of the five official "pillars" of the religion of Allah, whereas Yahweh is totally uninterested in such formalism, is one of the many 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. It simply is incompatible with the Bible.

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

039 6/72b: "To establish regular prayers - - -".What is the idea of prayers in Islam? If Allah predestines everything long before, like the Quran frequently states, prayers can have no effect at all, as nobody and nothing can change Allah's unchangeable Plan.

040 6/92h: "- - - they (Muslims*) are constant in guarding their Prayers". Why? - if it is true what the Quran claims many places, that Allah has predestined everything for you in accordance with his unchangeable Plan, which nothing and no-one can change, no prayer can change his predestinations - prayers to Allah thus are meaningless and a waste of time. (Muslims never - never - mention this).

As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

##041 7/29c: "- - - prayer - - -". What is the idea of praying for anything in Islam? According to the Quran - and Hadiths - Allah has predestined every detail in your and everyone else's life according to his unchangeable Plan - a Plan "nobody and nothing" can change. Thus prayers can have no effect and can change nothing, and just is a waste of time and effort - a fact (if the stated predestination is correct - and if it is not, the Quran is wrong) no Muslim ever mentions or tries to explain.

##042 7/31b: "- - - prayer - - -". What is the idea of praying for anything in Islam? According to the Quran - and Hadiths - Allah has predestined every detail in your and everyone else's life, and does so according to his unchangeable Plan - a Plan "nobody and nothing" can change. Thus prayers can have no effect and can change nothing, and just is a waste of time and effort - a fact (if the stated predestination is correct - and if it is not, the Quran is wrong) no Muslim ever mentions or tries to explain.

043 7/34c: "- - - not an hour can they (humans*) cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation)." Predestination is absolute - man can do exactly nothing to change it. This means that man’s claimed free will is an illusion. But it also means that war and battles are not dangerous - you do not die until your time is out, but then you die whether you are in the midst of a hard battle, working in your fields, or sleeping in your bed. A very nice religion for a robber baron and for a warlord - wrong of course, which is easy to prove nowadays by means of statistics, but naive people even today may believe in it. But also see 7/34a above: Have prayers any meaning at all in Islam, when prayers can change nothing?

##044 7/55a: "Call on (pray to*) your (Muslims'*) Lord (Allah*) with humility and in private - - -". What is the idea of praying for anything in Islam? According to the Quran - and Hadiths - Allah has predestined every detail in your and everyone else's life, and according to his unchangeable Plan - a Plan "nobody and nothing" can change. Thus prayers can have no effect and can change nothing, and just is a waste of time and effort - a fact (if the stated predestination is correct - and if it is not, the Quran is wrong) no Muslim ever mentions or tries to explain.

045 7/56c: "- - - call on (pray to*) Him (Allah*) - - -". What is the idea of praying for anything in Islam? According to the Quran - and Hadiths - Allah has predestined every detail in your and everyone else's life according to his unchangeable Plan - a Plan "nobody and nothing" can change. Thus prayers can have no effect and can change nothing, and just is a waste of time and effort - a fact (if the stated predestination is correct - and if it is not, the Quran is wrong) no Muslim ever mentions or tries to explain.

###046 7/99a: "- - - the Plan of Allah - - -". This refers to Allah's predestined running of the world(s) and the heaven(s - like Islam insists) and perhaps also Hell. It is a rigid plan with no room for changes: Allah has decided everything long ago, and that is it - nothing and nobody can change anything in it - total predestination (which in case means absolutely no room for any free will - partly like some Muslims try to explain it away with, or total. And in a way worse and never - never - mentioned by Muslims: Also there is no room for prayers in spite of what the Quran insists - if absolutely nothing can change the predestined Plan of Allah, also prayers can change nothing, and are just a waste of time and effort, and similar go for punishment and reward; good deeds and f.x. pilgrimages can have no effect, as nothing can change Allah's Plan). You meet this unchangeable Plan many places in the Quran.

###047 7/170b: "- - - regular Prayers - - -". The demand for regular prayers - a fixed number of prayers at roughly fixed times of the day - does not exist in the Bible. As this is one of the most central demands (one of the 5 "pillars") of the Quran and Islam, and thus one of the most central points for Allah, but totally without interest for Yahweh, this is one of the very strong proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

###048 7/170ba: "- - - regular prayers - - -". Why prayers? If Allah has predestined everything like the Quran claims many places, prayers in Islam just are waste of time and effort - and the same are the killing of animals for the honor of Allah - as nobody and nothing can change Allah's Plan. Yes, what can even a Hajj (a pilgrimage to Mecca) mean, as nothing can change Allah's decided Plan? - f.x. the time of your death is decided before you are even born, and according to Hadiths also whether you are to end in Heaven or Hell.

049 7/194b: "- - - let them (other gods*) listen to your prayer - - -". Here the Quran indicates that such prayers are in vain. But there are two facts Muslims never mention: 1) Never in 1400 years have there been even one documented case of a prayer to Allah which ha effect - claims, but never a documented case. And: 2) If it is correct like the Quran claims and states several places, everything in the world is predestined according to Allah’s unchangeable Plan - a plan nobody and nothing can change - also prayers, f.x. for help or forgiving, to Allah cannot change anything in his Plan. Thus prayers in Islam just is a waste of time and effort - a fact never mentioned by Muslims.

050 7/198a: "If thou (non-Muslims*) callest them (other gods - f.x. Yahweh*) to guidance, they hear not." As for Allah, there also has never been one single proved case of his help. And concerning Allah there is one more problem: Even if he should happen to exist, is there any idea to call him, if he has predestined everything, and NOTHING can change his predestined Plan, like the Quran states many places? A prayer is meaningless if it can change nothing.

051 8/3a: "- - - establish regular prayers - - -". But what is the idea with prayers in Islam if Allah predestines everything long before and according to his unchangeable Plan? - a plan "nobody and nothing can change". If nothing can change the predestination, prayers have no effect in Islam and are just a waste of time and effort.

    1. PREDESTINATION MAKES PRAYERS INVALID IN ISLAM. IF EVERYTHING IS PREDESTINED LONG TIME AGO, AND PREDESTINED IN ACCORDANCE WITH ALLAH'S PLAN - A PLAN NOBODY AND NOTHING CAN CHANGE ACCORDING TO SEVERAL VERSES IN THE QURAN, AND WHICH THUS ALSO PRAYERS CANNOT CHANGE, TO PRAY FOR HELP OR FORGIVING OR ANYTHING FROM ALLAH, JUST IS A WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT. THE SAME GO FOR GOOD DEEDS, ANIMAL OR OTHER SACRIFICES, PILGRIMAGE, ETC., AS NOTHING CAN CHANGE ALLAH'S PREDESTINED PLAN ACCORDING TO SEVERAL CLEAR STATEMENTS IN THE QURAN.

     

    052 8/35c: "Their (the pagan Arabs*) prayer at the House (of Allah) is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands - - -". Muhammad’s haughty description. The deep irony here is that in reality there were a number of pagan customs and ceremonies connected to the Kabah, and Muhammad took over most of these pagan ways of worship more or less unabridged - the pagans obviously had known the correct ways of worship Allah, but only the pagans in Arabia. Two remarkable coincidences?

    Besides: What is the value of Muslims' prayers if Allah had predestined everything according to his unchangeable Plan a long time ago, like the Quran states several places? If such predestination is true, prayers just are waste of time and effort (and if it is not true, something more is severely wrong with the religion).

    053 9/5j: "But if they (non-Muslims*) repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity (= became Muslims*), then open a way for them - - -". Kill the non-Muslim, but if they become Muslims, then let them live - "no compulsion in religion"?

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

    054 9/5k: "- - - regular prayers - - -". A minimum number of 5 prayers a day and at roughly fixed times of the day was so essential for Allah that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. Yahweh did not care about such formalities - pray when there was a reason or a need or a wish. One more strong proof for that Yahweh and Allah were not the same god. For Yahweh a fixed number of prayers were totally non-interesting - pray when there was a want or a need or a wish.

    055 9/5l: "- - - regular prayers - - -". But what is the idea of prayers if Allah has predestined every detail long before and according to his unchangeable Plan, like the Quran states many places? If "nothing and nobody can change his Plan", prayers have no effect, and are just so much wasted time and effort.

    Besides the demand for 5 prayers a day is one of the many proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god - Yahweh had totally different rules for praying.

    056 9/11a: "- - - regular prayers - - -". A minimum number of 5 prayers a day and at roughly fixed times of the day was so essential for Allah that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. Yahweh did not care about such formalities - pray when there was a reason or a need or a wish. One more strong proof for that Yahweh and Allah were not the same god.

    057 9/11b: "- - - regular prayers - - -". But what is the idea of prayers if Allah has predestined every detail long before according to his unchangeable Plan, like the Quran states many places? If "nothing and nobody can change his Plan", prayers have no effect, and are just so much wasted time and effort.

    058 9/18b: "- - - establish regular prayers - - -". This is one more of the proofs for that Yahweh is not the same god as Allah. To Allah a fixed minimum of prayers at relatively fixed times of the day is so essential that it is one of the 5 most essential points in the religion - one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. But to Yahweh such formalism is not interesting - pray when there is a need or a reason or a wish.

    The Quran's rigid rules for prayers are one of the strong proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god, as Yahweh's rules are too different.

    ###059 9/18c: "- - - prayers - - -". But what is the idea of prayers in Islam? - if everything is predestined like the Quran frequently claims, prayers to Allah can have no effect and is just a waste of time and effort. This is a fact we never have seen Muslims debate among themselves, and if we try to ask, they normally refrain from answering or they evade the question.

    ####060 9/51a: “Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us - - -”. Allah decides everything. The predestination - but where then is the claimed free will of man which justifies Allah's punishments for sins? - not even Islam is able to explain that. Islam even admits it is not possible to explain it, but adds lamely that it all the same must be true, because Allah says so in the Quran(!!) (A6/141 - 6/143 in English 2008 edition). The ultimate defeat for the brain vs. blind belief.

    And where is the effect of prayers in Islam, if Allah already has predestined what is going to happen, like the Quran tells he always do?

    061 9/85a "Allah's Plan - - -". Allah predestines everything, and he does it according to his Plan - a plan nobody and nothing can change. But how can he then punish man for sins Allah himself has planned and forced man to do? - Full predestination means no free will for man, no matter what the Quran claims - even Islam has given in explaining how both can be possible (A6/141) - and then: How can Allah punish for what man is forced to do? Also: Has prayer any meaning when Allah already has decided the outcome?

    ##062 9/99f: "- - - prayer - - -". What is the idea of prayers in Islam if the Quran tells the truth, when it many places states that Allah predestines every detail which happens, and predestines it according to his Plan which nobody and nothing can change? If nothing can change it, also prayers can change not a thing. This means that if the Quran tells the truth about predestination, prayers just are waste of time and effort. And if it does not tell the truth here, how many other places in the Quran is untrue - and what then is Islam?

    Also forgiving is impossible if Allah's Plan is impossible to change.

    ##063 9/99g: "- - - the prayers of Muhammad - - -". If nobody and nothing can change Allah's predestined Plan, this also goes for prayers, included Muhammad's prayers.

    064 9/103a: "- - - pray (Muhammad*) on their (the good desert Arabs*) behalf - - -". To what avail if Allah predestines everything according to his Plan which nobody and nothing can change anyhow? - one of the Quran's and Islam's most central and unsolvable mysteries and contradictions - and one which, unlike the impossibility of combining Allah's complete predestination with even a small piece of free will for man, is never mentioned by Muslims. (Total predestination after all is mentions sometimes by Islam, though their scholars (not the lay people who believe in what they are told explain it) admit it is impossible to understand how it can be combined.)

    065 9/103c: "Verily thy (Muhammad's*) prayers are a source of security for them (good Muslims*) - - -". How is that possible? See 9/103a above.

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

    066 9/108a: "Never stand thou (Muhammad*) forth therein". Muhammad should never lead the prayer in the competing mosque. If the Quran had been from a god, this would be an order to Muhammad not to accept a slightly divergent teaching. This is the intended meaning of it. But as the Quran is not from any god - too much is wrong - this simply may be a part of a struggle for power.

    067 9/108d: "- - - (for prayer) - - -". What is the idea of prayers in Islam, if it is true like the Quran many places states that Allah predestines everything, and predestines it according to his Plan, which nobody and nothing can change? If nothing can change what he already has predestined, also prayers cannot change anything.

    068 9/112a: "Those who turn (to Allah); that serve Him, and praise Him, that wander in devotion to the Cause of Allah; that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoins good and forbid evil, and observe the limit set by Allah - (these do rejoice)". Only if Allah exists and is a god (not f.x. something from the dark forces like parts of the Quran may indicate - or not simply is a fiction from one or more human brains, sick or not sick).

    069 9/112b: "- - - prayer - - -". What is the idea of prayers in Islam, if it is true like the Quran many places states that Allah predestines everything, and predestines it according to his Plan, which nobody and nothing can change? If nothing can change what he already has predestined, also prayers cannot change anything.

    070 10/12a: "When trouble toucheth a man, he crieth (prays loudly*) unto Us (Allah*) - - -. But when We (Allah*) have solved his trouble - - -". How is it possible to explain that Allah "solves trouble" because of prayers, when the Quran many places makes it 100% clear that Allah has predestine every detail of what happens on Earth according to his Plan, and that nothing and no-one, and thus no prayer from anyone, can change anything in that Plan? + that there in the entire world never was one single proved case of Allah helping anyone at all? (Guess if Islam had told about it if even one such case had happened!!)

    071 10/49c: “To every people is a term (a date of ending*) appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation)”. No matter what humans do, Allah is it who decides and predestines. Thus f.x. prayers will be in vain - nothing can change Allah's predestined Plan. And what about forgiving? - this means a change of Allah's Plan for you.

    ###072 10/64b: “- - - in the life of the Present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah”. What Allah decides is final - pure predestination. And many things he decides early – f.x. the day of your death and whether you will end in Hell or Heaven is (according to Hadiths) decided 5 months before you are born. And remember: According to the Quran Allah's predestined Plan is impossible to change by anyone or anything. Good or bad deeds, prayers, pilgrimage, or whatever (f.x. forgiving) - nothing can change Allah's predestined Plan, according to the Quran.

    073 10/87c: "- - - establish regular prayers - - -". There nowhere in the Bible is a demand for prayers at fixed times of the day, and neither for a fixed number of prayers a day. The Bible indicates: Pray when there is a reason, a wish, or a need.

    ####074 10/106a: "Nor call on any, other than Allah - - -". Why call on Allah when the Quran is very clear on that nobody and nothing - which includes prayers - can change his predestined Plan, and thus that also prayers just are a waste of time and effort which can have no effect?! That prayers can have effect is a contradiction "par excellence" if it is true that Allah predestines everything and does so according to an unchangeable Plan. One of the most serious of the many contradictions in the Quran in case. (And if predestination is not true, where then is Islam? - how much more in the Quran in case is not true?)

    075 11/90b: "But ask (pray for*) forgiveness of your Lord (Allah*), and turn to Him (in repentance) - - -". What for if Allah already has predestined everything according to his unchangeable Plan, like the Quran strongly states several places? - nothing can all the same change what is to happen - prayers and repentance in case just are wasted time and effort if this is true. And what is Islam if it is not true?

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

    076 11/114a: "And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day, and at the approaches of the night - - -". You find no demand in the Bible for prayers at fixed times of the day.

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c - a strong one - you get something thought-provoking. (And relevant here: Muslims often are taught that a question or problem which really can have only one valid solutions, can have 2 or more true and correct solutions - Islam is forced to teach this, because if not many of the mistakes and contradictions in the Quran become too obvious. But this ONLY is true if parallel true solutions are possible. F.x. in cases where 2 or more possible solutions are mutually excluding each other, maximum 1 of the mutually excluding ones can be true. Islam teaches differently. It should be a bit thought provoking for Muslims, that just this "small" difference in theoretical thinking and teaching, was one of the reasons (there were several of course) for why Europe and the West exploded into the Technical Revolution, while the Muslim area stagnated). Two star examples are: 1): Full predestination is not possible even for an omnipotent god to combine with even the smallest piece of free will for man - the two are mutually excluding. Islam is teaching differently. 2): The same for full and unchangeable predestination long time before, combined with any claimed effect of prayers - the two are mutually excluding each other. Islam is teaching differently.)

    Another fact: Today it is easy by means of statistical methods to check if prayers have any effect. (Let f.x. 1ooo persons each pray for one among 1ooo unknown persons sick or in other ways in need. compare the result after some time with a similar group of 1ooo who has not been prayed for, and see if there is a difference. If there is a positive difference, this would be a strong indication or perhaps even a proof for something - a proof Islam strongly needs, as it has not any proof for a single of its central claims. But it has not even tried to make such a test. Why?)

    ####077 11/114b: "- - - prayers - - -". These are the times for prayers (translated from Swedish):

    1. Fajr: Before dawn.
    2. Zuhr: Shortly after dinner time.
    3. 'Asr: During the afternoon.
    4. Maghrib: Shortly after sundown.
    5. 'Isha' After night has fallen.

     

    Shi'ia Muslims believe you can combine the dinner and afternoon prayers and the sundown and night prayers and pray 3 times a day (but of course 5 prayers all together, as this is specified by the Quran.)

    Allah forgot(?) to tell how to arrange things in the high north and south - and Muhammad hardly knew there was a problem. Muslims later had to make rules for this themselves.

    More serious: For Allah was the fixed prayers so essential, that he made it one of the 5 pillars in Islam. Yahweh on the other hand, was/is totally uninterested in such formalism. One of the many proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god - if one or both exists.

    Most serious: The differences in weight laying on formalities and fixed times and numbers concerning prayers between Yahweh and Allah, is one of the at least 100% profs for that the two are not the same god.

    As serious: What is the rationale and the effect of prayers in Islam, if Allah all the same long time ago has predestined everything, and done so according to his Plan nobody and nothing can change? If nothing can change it, also prayers have no effect and no value.

    A sample of prayer times:

    The prayer times does not follow the watch, but the sun. The times are exactly computed, but there are plenty of margins both ways - Allah is not too difficult (though some scholars say it is not exactly computed, and the margins not margins, but parts of not clearly specified times). These samples are for Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 13. Feb. 2011, and thus the names are a little different (but a rather similar pronunciation except the first one). The times vary some from day to day and from place to place.

    Name of prayer: Subuh Zahor Azar Mahgrib Isyak

    Time: 06.05 13.26 16.36 19.27 20.36

    078 11//114c: "- - - good - - - evil - - -". Beware that when the Quran uses words like these, it is meant in accordance with its own partly immoral moral code.

    079 12/98b: "Soon I (Jacob*) will ask my Lord (here indicated to be Allah*) for forgiveness for you". Why - if Allah predestines everything, the brothers only did what Allah forced them to do, and is there then a reason for asking for forgiveness? - and besides: If Allah has predestined everything according to a plan nobody and nothing can change, like the Quran states many places, why spend time and effort on prayers, when they can change nothing? And also forgiving is impossible, as that means Allah has to change his unchangeable Plan and drop or reduce his planned punishment for you.

    080 13/2k: "He (Allah*) doth regulate all affairs - - -". Contradicted by the Bible, which says that Yahweh regulates a lot - though not like in the Quran where the claimed god regulates absolutely everything, so that f.x. free will of man, forgiving, and the value of prayers just are illusions, if the claim is true. And what is the situation if the claims about total predestination are not true? Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

    081 13/14a: “For Him (Allah*) (alone) is prayer in Truth - - -“. Yes, but only if Allah exists (and is the only god). There was a good reason why Muhammad demanded and glorified blind belief: There existed and exists no real proof and no documentation for the existence of Allah – or for that case for Muhammad’s connection to a god. Blind belief in Islam only is based on the words of a morally suspect man like Muhammad. (The real, historical Muhammad is only distantly related to the glorified saint Islam claims he was.)

    082 13/14b: "- - - prayer - - -". But why pray, if it is true like the Quran claims that Allah predestines everything long time before, and that his predestinations are made according to a Plan which nobody and nothing can change? If predestination is true, prayers just are a waste of time and effort in Islam. (If Allah's Plan is unchangeable, he also cannot forgive.)

    083 13/14f: "- - - the prayer from those without Faith is nothing but (futile) wandering (in the mind)". Something like praying to a god who most likely does not exist - never any proofs neither for his power, nor for his existence, and his "holy" book so full of errors, that no god would have touched it, not to mention put his name behind/on/in it, or revered it in his "home" as a "mother book" (13/39, 43/4 below). Not to mention prayer to a god who predestines everything years and decades before, so prayers just are naive waste of time - if the claims about predestination are true (and if not, Islam does not exist anymore - except as a made up pagan religion).

    084 13/14g: "- - - the prayer from those without Faith is nothing but (futile) wandering (in the mind)". If f.x. Yahweh exists - and both the Bible and the Quran claims he does (even though the Quran wrongly mixes him up with Allah) - this is wrong for believers in Yahweh. But what about Muslims? For one thing Allah never proved even his very existence, and for another; if he does exist, everything is predestined and cannot be changed = prayers have no effect.

    085 13/15a: “Whatever beings there are in the heavens (plural and wrong*) and in the earth do prostrate themselves (pray*) to Allah (acknowledging subjection)”. As for in the Heaven, it is difficult to say yes or no. But for the Earth: No non-Muslim ever prostrate themselves for Allah (except when forced to). The same go for all animals, fishes and insects, etc.: None of them has ever been observed prostrating themselves for any god, Allah included – and for Allah it should be extra easy to observe, as he prefers 5 prayers with prostrations towards Mecca a day, some by day and some by night (even more easy to see if it is prostrations for Allah, as few animals, etc. are awake and active both day and night – waking up for prostrations towards Mecca during the time of normal sleep, should be easy to have confirmed). Islam has some heavy proofs to produce here to make this point in the Quran credible. Also see 2/116 – 6/38 – 16/49 – 17/44 – 21/20 – 22/18.

    086 13/22b: "- - - establish regular prayers - - -". What for? - if Allah has predestined everything years and decades and more ago, prayers cannot have any effect. (And the same to f.x. forgiving or fasting.)

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c - a strong one - you get something thought-provoking. (And relevant here: Muslims often are taught that a question or problem which really can have only one valid solutions, can have 2 or more true and correct solutions - Islam is forced to teach this, because if not many of the mistakes and contradictions in the Quran become too obvious. But this ONLY is true if parallel true solutions are possible. F.x. in cases where 2 or more possible solutions are mutually excluding each other, maximum 1 of the mutually excluding ones can be true. Islam teaches differently. It should be a bit thought provoking for Muslims, that just this "small" difference in theoretical thinking and teaching, was one of the reasons (there were several of course) for why Europe and the West exploded into the Technical Revolution, while the Muslim area stagnated). Two star examples are: 1): Full predestination is not possible even for an omnipotent god to combine with even the smallest piece of free will for man - the two are mutually excluding. Islam is teaching differently. 2): The same for full and unchangeable predestination long time before, combined with any claimed effect of prayers - the two are mutually excluding each other. Islam is teaching differently.)

    Another fact: Today it is easy by means of statistical methods to check if prayers have any effect. (Let f.x. 1ooo persons each pray for one among 1ooo unknown persons sick or in other ways in need. compare the result after some time with a similar group of 1ooo who has not been prayed for, and see if there is a difference. If there is a positive difference, this would be a strong indication or perhaps even a proof for something - a proof Islam strongly needs, as it has not any proof for a single of its central claims. But it has not even tried to make such a test. Why?)

    ##087 13/22c: "- - - establish regular prayers - - -". This - the 5 prayers a day - is one of the most central demands from Allah in Islam - one of the 5 "pillars". In the Bible such a demand is not mentioned one single time, even though the Bible has 3-4 times as much text as the Quran - such formalism is totally without interest for Yahweh; pray when there is a need or a wish or another real reason. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    088 14/31a: "- - - my (Allah's*) servants who have believed, that they may establish regular prayers - - -". This seems to be about persons who have left Islam - a wish that they shall return (this was in 621-622 AD before Muhammad was able to use force).

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c and 2/187d. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c and get something thought provoking.

    089 14/31b: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that a similar rule is not at all mentioned in the entire Bible. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    090 14/37d: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that a similar rule is not at all mentioned in the entire Bible. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    091 14/39e: "- - - the Hearer of Prayer (here indicated Allah*)!" One thing is that Allah can hear no prayers unless he exists. Another: Prayers what for as they can change nothing? If what the Quran tells about Allah's predestination of everything years and decades and more on beforehand, and that nothing can change his predestination, prayers just is naive waste of time in Islam.

    092 14/40b: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that a similar rule is not at all mentioned in the entire Bible. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    093 14/40c: "And accept Thou (here indicated Allah*) my (Abraham's*) prayer". What for? If everything is predestined like the Quran states many places, prayer have no effect - nothing can be changed.

    Another point is that according to the Bible Abraham's god was Yahweh, not Allah.

    ##############094 16/35e: YA here has an interesting comment (YA2057): "- - - the limited free will granted to man, which is the whole basis of Ethics". The Quran claims man has free will. As this obviously is wrong, as Allah predestines everything, some Muslims try to save the day by adjusting it to that the book and Allah in reality mean limited free will, something the Quran definitely nowhere says - the Muslims here are corrupting the Quran. The flat reality, though, is that if Allah decides and predestines everything, like the Quran states MANY places, there is nothing left for man to decide. Thus also "limited free will" is an impossibility. Worse: The fact that if Allah decides everything, there is nothing left for man to decide, is such a simple mathematics, that it is not possible that YA and all other learned Muslims do not know it. x - x = 0. There exists no other possible answer. All the same they use this argument - and many simpleminded or uneducated or wishful believers believe it. You meet a little too much of this kind of dishonesty in Islamic literature.

    #############But the really interesting point just here, is that YA clearly states the obvious: If man has no free will, all ethical questions concerning him disappears. What you are forced to do, tells nothing about your ethics. But on the other hand it tells a lot about the ethics of the one who forces you to do it. Not to mention what it tells about the ethics of the one forcing you, if he punishes you for bad things he has forced you to do. Allah predestines everything according to his Plan, according to the Quran. All the same Allah punishes you for the bad deeds he forced you to do to follow his Plan. What kind of god is this?!!

    Thus Islam has at least five problems concerning predestination where the contradictions are so strong, that they are unsolvable even for an omniscient and omnipotent god:

    1. If Allah predestines everything like the Quran states most clearly many places, there is no room for free will of man, not even for "partly free will". x - x = 0 simply, and no other answer is possible. (Also full clairvoyance from Allah would be impossible - with free will man always could change his mind once more.) It also is symptomatic that we no place in Muslim literature have met an explanation for how "partly free will" should be possible. Like so much in Islam, it just is a claim hanging on nothing.
    2. If Allah predestines everything, and you thus just do what he has decided you shall do, how is it then ethically and morally possible to punish you for bad deeds? - and for that case reward you for good deeds? What kind of god is this?!
    3. ###### And the third problem - one Muslims and Islam NEVER mention: If Allah predestines everything, and does so according to his unchangeable Plan like the Quran states many places - and decides it even years and decades before it is to happen (your death and whether you are to end in Hell or Heaven f.x. are decided 5 months before you are born according to Hadiths) - there is no value in prayers, as prayers like everything else can have no effect on his decisions made according to his Plan which nobody and nothing can change. (Of course you can claim that also the punishment or reward was predestined, but then it is not punishment/reward any more, bur theatre.)
    4. #### And a fourth problem: Also forgiving means to change Allah's Plan - which "nobody and nothing can do". "Ergo" to ask for forgiving is meaningless, as it is asking Allah change his predestined Plan for you. If Allah's full predestination is true, the Quran's talk about forgiving and effect of prayers are untrue.
    5. And the fifth problem (there likely are more): If nobody and nothing can change Allah's predestined Plan, also the pilgrimage to Mecca is without any effect, and thus invalid and meaningless. ##### Thus only because of this fundamental point in the Quran - full predestination - two of the claimed pillars carrying Islam - prayer and pilgrimage to Mecca - are without effect and value, and thus meaningless.

     

    These are among the reasons why you meet Muslims claiming that Allah's predestinations are not real predestinations, without explaining what it then is - and in stark contradiction to many clear statements in the Quran. And why you meet Muslims claiming the impossible - and like so often in Islam without logical explanation for how it is possible - that man has free will or at least partly free will, in spite of the 100% predestination stated frequently in the Quran, "because the claim has to be true because Allah says so in the Quran".

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c - a strong one - you get something thought-provoking. (And relevant here: Muslims often are taught that a question or problem which really can have only one valid solutions, can have 2 or more true and correct solutions - Islam is forced to teach this, because if not many of the mistakes and contradictions in the Quran become too obvious. But this ONLY is true if parallel true solutions are possible. F.x. in cases where 2 or more possible solutions are mutually excluding each other, maximum 1 of the mutually excluding ones can be true. Islam teaches differently. It should be a bit thought provoking for Muslims, that just this "small" difference in theoretical thinking and teaching, was one of the reasons (there were several of course) for why Europe and the West exploded into the Technical Revolution, while the Muslim area stagnated). Two star examples are: 1): Full predestination is not possible even for an omnipotent god to combine with even the smallest piece of free will for man - the two are mutually excluding. Islam is teaching differently. 2): The same for full and unchangeable predestination long time before, combined with any claimed effect of prayers - the two are mutually excluding each other. Islam is teaching differently.)

    Another fact: Today it is easy by means of statistical methods to check if prayers have any effect. (Let f.x. 1ooo persons each pray for one among 1ooo unknown persons sick or in other ways in need. compare the result after some time with a similar group of 1ooo who has not been prayed for, and see if there is a difference. If there is a positive difference, this would be a strong indication or perhaps even a proof for something - a proof Islam strongly and dearly needs, as they have not any proof for even a single of its central claims. But it has not even tried to make such a test. Why?)

    095 16/53c: "- - - when ye are touched by distress, unto Him (Allah*) ye cry with groans - - -". Why? If everything is predestined according to Allah's Plan which nothing and no-one can change, prayers mean nothing for what is going to happen - good or bad.

    #096 16/61f: "- - - when their (people's*) (predestined*) Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour - - -". Not even by sincere prayers? Also there is no reason for using medicine, or stop the bleeding of a wound - Allah has long since predestined if you will survive or not.

    097 16/124b: "The Sabbath was only made (strict) for those who disagreed - - -." The Quran here indicates that the day of rest once a week is a punishment for Jews and Christians, and pretends to quote the Law of Moses as a proof for this. But there nowhere in the Bible included the Laws of Moses and the complete books of Moses where it is indicated that the day of rest is a punishment. It also nowhere in the Bible is indicated that the Sabbath - the day of rest - was initiated by the Laws of Moses, like you may meet Muslims telling you (for both claims see f.x. YA2159). Actually as far as we have read, in the old times with much hard physical work, the body needed some rest to be able to do its best. But of course if a leader thought days of rest were wasted time, it might have been tempting to say: "Pray your Friday Prayer and go on working" - - - and then tell his followers how lucky they were who did not have to take a break.

    But one funny thing here is that when the Muslims claim this is from the Law of Moses, they quote nothing from that law to prove it (there is nothing there which says this), but instead quotes from the Quran (f.x. 2/74). You meet this technique sometimes from Muslim scholars who are teaching lay Muslims - YA is meant for lay Muslims and a little up. Honesty?

    098 17/11a: "The prayer man should make for good, he maketh for evil". Please take a look at the Quran's and Islam's (also today's Islam) code of moral - and remember the golden rule: "Do to others like you want others do to you". Also read some modern Islamic literature concerning f.x. war, etc., meant for the Muslim masses. This quote in the Quran seems to be very correct.

    099 17/56b: "- - - they (other gods*) have neither the power to remove your troubles from you nor to change them". This may be correct, but a deep question never even mentioned neither in the Quran, nor in Hadiths, nor anywhere else in Islam as far as we have seen, is: If Allah predestines everything, and often years before like the Quran states, and if nothing can change his decisions and Plan: Why then pray to Allah for help in troubles at all? - nothing can change his decisions anyhow, so prayers for such changes are just so much wasted time. This fact is never mentioned by mullahs, etc., so we have never seen how they explain it away. And similar go for good and bad deeds, pilgrimage, etc.

    Besides there is the very fundamental question: Does Allah at all have such power? Yes, does he even exist?

    100 17/78a: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule at all is mentioned in the entire Bible - pray when there was a wish or a need or another real reason. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    101 17/110d: "Neither speak thy (Muslims'*) Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between". To Yahweh you can even pray silently inside yourself - there is nothing like this sentence in the Bible. The same god?

    102 17/110e: "Neither speak thy (Muslims'*) Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between". But why pray at all? If everything is predestined like the Quran states many places, and impossible to change, prayer is just a vase of time and effort - and the same are sacrifices.

    103 19/4e: "Praying (here wrongly indicated to Allah*) - - -". Why pray to Allah if everything is predestined, like the Quran states many places? Nobody and nothing can change Allah's predestined plan, so what is then the idea with prayers?

    104 19/31b: " - - - Prayer - - -". Is there at all any meaning in prayers to Allah, if everything is Planned and predestined long time before, like the Quern states many places?

    105 19/47b; "- - - I (Abraham*) will pray to my lord (here indicated Allah*) for thy (his father's*) forgiveness - - -". Why? - if Allah predestines everything long before, and does so according to a Plan which nobody and nothing can change, like the Quran states many places, prayers have no meaning in Islam, as they cannot have any effect. (Similar goes for f.x. good and bad deeds, pilgrimage, punishment, reward, forgiving, etc. - Allah cannot react to it unless he changes his unchangeable Plan). A question Muslims never touch.

    106 19/48b: "- - - prayer - - -". See 19/47b above.

    107 19/84c: “- - - We (Allah*) but count out to them (non-Muslims*) a (limited) number (of days)”. What Allah has predestined, is what counts and cannot be changed. (Though how to combine it with free will of man? - or forgiving, or any effect of prayer, or of a pilgrimage? - etc.?).

    108 20/14d: "- - - regular prayers - - -". One of the 100+% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah were not the same god: For Allah the 5 prayers a day were so essential that he made them one of the 5 pillars of Islam. Yahweh did not even bother to mention such a formality (not once in the entire Bible) - pray when there was a reason or a need or a wish to do so.

    109 20/82c: "- - - I (Allah*) am (also) He that forgives - - -". But what effect can (prayers for) forgiving have in Islam? If everything is predestine according to Allah's unchangeable Plan, forgiving can have no effect - what is decided years and decades ago, will happen no matter.

    110 20/129b: "- - - a term appointed - - -". Predestination again. Allah predestines every detail in your and everybody's life - included for all animals and plants and all inanimate existence. And the predestination is not possible to change - - - which means no free will for man, no effect of prayer, forgiving not possible, etc.

    111 21/73d: "- - - regular prayers - - -". There is said nothing about this (fixed times for prayers) in the Bible - actually nowhere in the Bible about any of the prophets - Jewism and even more so Christianism stress mainly realities and less formalities. Islam's and Allah's greater stress on formalities compared to Yahweh's greater stress on realities (like this and like charity shall really be charity, not only fulfilling your duties towards your nearest family, etc.) is one more indication for that Yahweh and Allah is not the same god - see 21/73d just below.

    112 21/73e: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    113 22/26e: "- - - prostrate themselves (Muslims*) (therein in prayer)". What is the mission of prayers in Islam? If the statements in the Quran telling that Allah predestines everything on beforehand - years and decades and more before - and according to an unchangeable Plan, prayers can have no effect, because they can change nothing.

    ###114 22/27b: “And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men - - -.” See 22/27a above. If everything is predestined, a pilgrimage can do just as little and is just as meaningless as a prayer.

    115 22/35c: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    116 22/41a: "- - - those who - - - establish regular prayer - - -". Muslims.

    117 22/41b: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    118 22/78j: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    119 23/2a: "Those who humble themselves in their prayers - - -". Muslims.

    120 23/2b: "- - - prayers - - -". If it is true what the Quran clearly states many places, that Allah predestines absolutely everything in life according to his Plan which nobody and nothing can change - and predestines it years and decades and more in advance, what is then the meaning of and benefit from prayers in Islam - or for that case pilgrimage? - it can change nothing anyhow.

    ##121 23/9b: "- - - those who strictly guard their prayers - - -". The Quran has a central dogma which is confirmed many places in the Quran and in Hadiths: Allah predestines everything in this world - everything. This he does long time before it happens - years and decades and even more; 5 months before you are even born he according to Hadiths f.x. decides when you are going to die and whether you are going to end in Heaven or Hell. And his predestinations he makes according to his unchangeable Plan - a Plan nobody and nothing can change. This dogma was fine for Muhammad when he wanted to recruit warriors, which he needed lots and lots of after Islam was changed from a peaceful religion to a religion of robbery and war in 622 - 624 AD (Allah changed his mind about the value of peace and humanity contra war and power and terror and apartheid and stolen riches and slaves?)

    But this is incompatible with at least 3 other central dogmas in the religion: Free will for man and prayers - and with the dogma of forgiving:

    The debated one is the dogma of free will for man. If Allah predestines everything, free will for man is an illusion, and humans are just puppets-on-a-string playing Allah's theater. But if that is the case, how can Allah punish sinners who have been forced by him to do what they did? - or for that case reward "good" persons who also just were playing their forced role? Muhammad needed the dogma of free will for man to be able to claim Allah was a just and good god who rewarded and punished justly. He needed that dogma and he launched it and he used it - - - but he never was able to explain how it could possibly be combined with the dogma about full predestination. And Islam has never been able to explain it, too - even today it is unexplained and unexplainable for Muslims. We quote A6/141 (English 2008 edition 6/143,comment to verse 6/149): “In other words, the real relationship between Allah’s knowledge of the future (and, therefore, the ineluctably of what is to happen in the future) on one side, and man’s free will, on the other – two propositions which, on the face of it, seem to contradict one another – is beyond man’s comprehension; but since both are postulated by Allah, both must be true.

    Simply the ultimate pinnacle of clear speech. And the ultimate victory not for blind faith, but for blind faith based on naivety and intellectual unconsciousness. IT ALSO IS THE ULTIMATE DEFEAT FOR THE CLAIM THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO COMBINE THE CLAIM THAT MAN HAS FREE WILL WITH THE CLAIM THAT ALLAH DECIDES EVERY DETAIL OF YOUR LIFE. (Some Muslims try to "explain it with that the Quran just means partly free will, but that is just a joke. For one thing the Quran is very clear when it several places tells that Allah predestines everything, and then there is no room left for any even partly free will for man. And for another: Even partly free will for man will make reliable precognition and reliable predestination impossible for Allah - the laws of chaos sees to that. Full predestination for Allah is impossible even for gods to combine with even partly free will for man. In the immaterial realms of life there are things impossible even for omnipotent gods.

    And what is never debated, because Muslims never mention it:

    There is the other conundrum: Full predestination and prayers. What is the mission of prayers - and for that case pilgrimage (hajj) and good deeds - if everything is predestined long before? If everything is predestined years and decades before, and according to a Plan nobody and nothing can change, also prayers can change nothing and have no value or meaning, and just are wasted time and effort.

    Worse: If it is Allah who has predestined that you have to make a prayer and pray for so and so, what meaning and value does it then have for Allah, when he knows that your prayer just is a repetition of what he decided you should pray for and what to say in your prayer? Such a "prayer" - or "good deed" or "hajj" - tells nothing about you, and has little value for any sentient being, included for a god.

    Also read about "regular prayers" - f.x. 22/78j.

    And what about forgiving? To forgive you for Allah means that he has to change his predestined Plan and reduce or take away the punishment planned for your sin. But that is impossible if it is true that nobody and nothing can change Allah's predestinations.

    122 24/37a: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    123 24/56a: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    124 24/57b: "- - - (Allah's Plan) - - -". According to many places in the Quran, Allah predestines absolutely everything in this world - it was the only world Muhammad knew about (except that he claimed there were 6 more - according to Hadiths they lay underneath the pancake Earth). This predestination is absolute, and nobody and nothing can change anything. Everything also is predestined long time before - the time of your death and whether you are going to end in Hell or Heaven (!) are f.x. predestined when the fetus is 4 months old - 5 months before it is born. And everything is predestined in accordance with Allah's Plan, which nobody and nothing can change. (What about free will for man or effect of prayers or forgiving? - or pilgrimage?)

    125 24/58e: "- - - morning prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    126 24/58f: "- - - late-night prayer - - -". See 24/58d above.

    127 25/74b: “And those who pray - - ". But what is the idea of praying, when Allah predestines everything according to his Plan - a Plan nobody or nothing can change? If this statement is true, all prayers are wasted time, as Allah already has decided what is going to happen. (And if it is not true, what is then Islam?)

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c - a strong one - you get something thought-provoking. (And relevant here: Muslims often are taught that a question or problem which really can have only one valid solutions, can have 2 or more true and correct solutions - Islam is forced to teach this, because if not many of the mistakes and contradictions in the Quran become too obvious. But this ONLY is true if parallel true solutions are possible. F.x. in cases where 2 or more possible solutions are mutually excluding each other, maximum 1 of the mutually excluding ones can be true. Islam teaches differently. It should be a bit thought provoking for Muslims, that just this "small" difference in theoretical thinking and teaching, was one of the reasons (there were several of course) for why Europe and the West exploded into the Technical Revolution, while the Muslim area stagnated). Two star examples are: 1): Full predestination is not possible even for an omnipotent god to combine with even the smallest piece of free will for man - the two are mutually excluding. Islam is teaching differently. 2): The same for full and unchangeable predestination long time before, combined with any claimed effect of prayers - the two are mutually excluding each other. Islam is teaching differently.)

    Another fact: Today it is easy by means of statistical methods to check if prayers have any effect. (Let f.x. 1ooo persons each pray for one among 1ooo unknown persons sick or in other ways in need. compare the result after some time with a similar group of 1ooo who has not been prayed for, and see if there is a difference. If there is a positive difference, this would be a strong indication or perhaps even a proof for something - a proof Islam strongly and dearly needs, as they have not any proof for even a single of its central claims. But it has not even tried to make such a test. Why?)

    128 26/218a: “- - - Who seeth thee (Muslims*) standing forth (in prayer).” What is the idea and effect of prayers in Islam, if everything is predestined by Allah in accordance with an unchangeable Plan years and decades and more before, like the Quran stated several places?

    129 27/3a: "- - - those who establish regular prayers - - -". Muslims.

    130 27/3b: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    131 27/62a: "- - - (Allah*) who listens to the (soul) distressed when it calls on Him (Allah*), and who relives its suffering - - -?" How do this fit the strong claims in the Quran about Allah predestining everything according to a Plan which no-one and nothing can change the very least? Either Allah has decided a better future for you or he has not - nothing can change his Plan - - - which means that either the Plan is untrue or your prayers are wasted time. But predestination was necessary for Muhammad to get as many and as fearless warriors as possible - predestination meant that battles were not more dangerous than staying home, and in raids and battles you could gain loot. (##########Both these claims are logical nonsense: It for one is not difficult to prove - if a formal proof at is necessary - that if you stay away from battles, your chance for a longer life is much better. For another: If Allah has predestined that you shall become rich, you according to the logic of predestination become rich whether you stay in your bed or steal from other people.)

    #####132 29/22a: “Not on earth nor in heaven will ye be able (fleeing) to frustrate (His Plan) - - -“. Predestination. No-one can change what Allah has destined in his Plan. What then about the effect of prayers? - and what about free will for man? - not to mention: What then about man's moral responsibility for his words and deeds? - and not to forget: What about forgiving (which means Allah will have to change his original Plan on that point)? At least something is wrong.

    133 29/45e: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    134 29/45f: "- - - Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds - - -". Like f.x. rape a female captive in the name of Allah - or stone a raped woman who cannot bring 4 male witnesses to that it really was rape? Also see 29/45d.

    135 30/17b: "So (give) glory to Allah, when ye (Muslims*) reach eventide and when ye raise in the morning". We are back to the regular prayers of Islam. This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    136 30/31b: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    #137 31/4b: "- - - regular Prayer - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    #138 31/17b: "- - - regular Prayer - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    139 31/22f: "- - - with Allah rests the End and Decision of (all) affairs". There is no doubt when claiming that man has free will, the Quran is wrong: Allah decides all things - the predestination. (Actually this is said many places and in many ways throughout the Quran). If Allah decides all things, man has no free will: x - x = 0. But how fair, how good, and how benevolent is Allah then when he punishes man for sins Allah has decided he shall make? And what is the effect of prayers if everything is predestined - included your prayer?

    Either this or predestination is wrong. There is no way to combine the two statements - not even for an omnipotent god. (In the non-material realms of existence, there are things impossible also for gods.)

    140 33/33a: “And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger (!!*). And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.” Yes, this is how the omnipotent, mighty god speaks to solve Muhammad's daily family life according to the revered "Mother Book" in his - Allah's - own home in his Heaven (of which the Quran is a copy, according to Islam).

    As said before: Read 33/28-29 through 33/33 + 33/50 and 33/51 together to get a picture of his – and very many other dominant religious persons in strong and dark religious societies – technique. One of the much used – and proved efficient – ways of manipulating dependant persons. Even the use of the god, is typical for such persons. All this formally is about Muhammad’s private intimate life, but as what he said and did was and is the correct ethical and moral code in Islam – it is the norm for all women concerning this aspect of life. Allah orders Muhammad's wives to be good girls - a nice help for Muhammad. But is it a job for a god? - and is it text worthy a "Mother Book" that an omniscient god reveres - reveres - in his Heaven?

    As for the value of prayers in Islam, also see 62/9c. And if you combine 62/9c with 67/9c - a strong one - you get something thought-provoking. (And relevant here: Muslims often are taught that a question or problem which really can have only one valid solutions, can have 2 or more true and correct solutions - Islam is forced to teach this, because if not many of the mistakes and contradictions in the Quran become too obvious. But this ONLY is true if parallel true solutions are possible. F.x. in cases where 2 or more possible solutions are mutually excluding each other, maximum 1 of the mutually excluding ones can be true. Islam teaches differently. It should be a bit thought provoking for Muslims, that just this "small" difference in theoretical thinking and teaching, was one of the reasons (there were several of course) for why Europe and the West exploded into the Technical Revolution, while the Muslim area stagnated). Two star examples are: 1): Full predestination is not possible even for an omnipotent god to combine with even the smallest piece of free will for man - the two are mutually excluding. Islam is teaching differently. 2): The same for full and unchangeable predestination long time before, combined with any claimed effect of prayers - the two are mutually excluding each other. Islam is teaching differently.)

    Another fact: Today it is easy by means of statistical methods to check if prayers have any effect. (Let f.x. 1ooo persons each pray for one among 1ooo unknown persons sick or in other ways in need. compare the result after some time with a similar group of 1ooo who has not been prayed for, and see if there is a difference. If there is a positive difference, this would be a strong indication or perhaps even a proof for something - a proof Islam strongly and dearly needs, as they have not any proof for even a single of its central claims. But it has not even tried to make such a test. Why?)

    141 35/14a: "If ye (non-Muslims*) invoke them (other gods*), they will not listen to your call, and if they were to listen, they cannot answer your (prayer)". Similar to 35/13g just above.

    #142 35/18c: "- - - regular Prayer - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    #143 35/29b: "- - - regular Prayer - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    144 35/30c: "- - - He (Allah*) is Oft-Forgiving - - -". Allah can forgive exactly no-one unless he exists and in addition is a god.

    Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, something which according to the Quran is something nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

    145 35/41i: "(Allah is*) Oft-Forgiving". Allah can forgive nobody unless he exists and is a god, neither of which is anything but claims.

    As for forgiving from Allah: See 2/187d above. Allah can neither forgive nor accept prayers if full predestination is true like the Quran states - it would mean changes in his predestined Plan "which nobody and nothing can change".

    146 37/75c: "- - - We (Allah*) are the Best to hear prayers". Only possible - not sure, but possible - if Allah exists, is a major god, and is correctly described in the Quran. But the Bible means Yahweh is better - so much better that it does not even mention Allah or any of his followers.

    147 38/32b: (YA4185): “Truly do I (King David or king Solomon - likely Solomon*) love the love of good, with a view to the glory of my Lord - - -“. But it is as linguistically correct to follow other Muslim scholars who say that it means: “Truly did I prefer the good things (of this world) to the remembrance of your Lord”.

    In the case of the last interpretation A. Yusuf Ali indicates that the reason for Solomon’s remorse may be that he had forgotten his Asr prayer (one of the 5 Muslims at least should pray each day). But how is that possible? – according to Hadiths it was Muhammad who made Allah decide on 5 prayers a day (Allah originally wanted 50). The rule of 5 prayers thus could not exist some 1600 years earlier (Solomon was king ca. 975 (971?) - 936 BC, give or take a few years), and also the Jews do not have and never had a rule saying 5 prayers at fixed times a day.

    #######It is very typical for Muslims to "solve" a problem by good claims, but forgetting that other aspects or facts are screaming that the claim or "explanation" cannot be true. You meet this time and again and again in Islam and from Muslims.

    It also is a fact that we here are approaching the times of written history, and neither in history nor in any other medium anybody has found traces from a god like Allah or a religion like Islam at the time of Solomon. On the contrary even the oldest reliable information about this, shows that the god of the believing Jews, was Yahweh, and the religion was mainly like Jewism even today. And Yahweh never had fixed time prayers - not even Asr.

    Claims like this are a bit too naive.

    148 40/7h: "Forgive - - -". Only 2 can forgive: The victim and a god. Thus Allah can forgive only if he for one thing exists and for another if he is a victim or a god.

    Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, something which according to the Quran is something nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

    149 40/50c: "- - - the praying of those without Faith is nothing but (futile wandering) in (mazes of) error!". But are prayers from Muslims any better, as the Quran they believe in, literally are mazes of error, included lots and lots of wrong facts?

    150 40/50d: "- - - the praying of those without Faith is nothing but (futile wandering) in (mazes of) error!". Contradicted by the Bible which tells that prayers to Yahweh have the best effect - actually the only ones with effect. Also see 67/9c below - a strong one. But of course it is ok for Islam to prove - prove - the Bible wrong and the Quran right. But as we say: Prove, not just loose claims and as loose and invalid words like the Quran always use instead of proofs.

    ##151 40/55j: “- - - Praises thy Lord in the evening and in the morning.” This with prayers at fixed times of the day - actually there are 5 a day - was so essential for Allah, that they became one of the 5 main pillar for his religion. Whereas Yahweh was totally uninterested in that kind of formalism - pray when there was a wish or a need. One more of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah were not the same god.

    152 40/60a: "I (Allah*) will answer your prayers - - -".

    But for the last 1400 years and until today he has not given one single clear and indisputable answer. There have been coincidences, claims, etc., but not one single unmistakable answer unmistakably and proved from Allah. Not in 1400 years! (If there had been even one single, Islam had broadcasted it in all media each and every time the question had cropped up. But it has never happened.

    153 40/60b: "- - - prayers - - -". But what is the idea behind and what is the effect of prayers, if Allah long since has predestined everything - and predestined according to his Plan which nobody and nothing can change, like the Quran states several places. If predestination is true, prayers just are waste of time and effort - there is no way they can have any effect. To claim differently either needs a good explanation or is mumbo-jumbo.

    154 40/65c: "- - - call upon Him (Allah*) - - -". It may be worth a try. But he has never provably answered anyone between Muhammad and now. And besides if he has predestined everything like the Quran states several places, prayer cannot have any effect - everything is already decided.

    155 41/51: "- - - prolonged prayer - - -". What is the idea of prayers in Islam? If everything is predestined long time before, and according to a divine Plan nobody and nothing can change like the Quran states many times, prayers cannot have any effect.

    156 42/5d: "- - - pray - - -". What is the idea with prayers in the Quran? If Allah predestines everything long before, and in accordance with his Plan, which nobody and nothing can change, also prayers can change nothing, and is just a waste of time and effort.

    #157 42/38b: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    158 46/32b: "- - - cannot frustrate (Allah's Plan) on earth - - -". The predestination again - what Allah has planned and decided, nobody and nothing can change (f.x. prayers, forgiving, free will?).

    159 48/11e: "Who then has any power at all (to intervene) on your (half-hearted Muslims*) behalf with Allah - - -". The desert Arabs - the Bedouins - originally were rather luke-warm to Muhammad and his religion, and Muhammad was frustrated about it. But where is the logic when he normally tells that Allah decides everything and nobody can influence Allah's will and decisions or Plan, whereas his implicit threat here seems to be that if the desert Arabs will not obey him - the two points you find he comments other places in the Quran, are that they are reluctant to take part in his raids and reluctant to pay tax - he will not intervene on their behalf with Allah (to make Allah change his Plan to benefit them). But then Muhammad is not always logical when other arguments works better. See f.x. his claims that Allah decides and predestines everything, but all the same man has free will. It is so impossible to combine these two, that even Islam has given in to explain it. The essential things seem not to be that things or claims can be true, but that they work - that naive or brainwashed or blindly believing followers believe what is claimed. Predestination and free will for man is not possible even for gods to combine. The same goes for predestination and no intervention possible but all the same intervention by Muhammad possible, like here is indicated.

    And a small PS: What is the value of prayers or claimed forgiving in Islam, if everything is predestined long time before by Allah, and according to his Plan which "nobody and nothing can change"? - if nothing can change it, then also prayers can change nothing in the Plan, and prayers are to no avail. - and forgiving also is not possible, as that would mean that Allah had to change his predestination concerning you.

    160 50/39-40: Here simply are mentioned some of the times of the day when Muslims are to pray. But here is an essential point: To Allah prayers at fixed times are so essential that he has made the 5 fixed ones one of the 5 pillars of Islam. Yahweh does not care about that kind of formalism at all - pray when there is a wish or a need. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    161 51/17: "They (Muslims*) were in the habit of sleeping but little by night - - -". = They spent parts of the night praying. (But what is the idea of praying, if Allah has predestined everything long before, so that prayers can have no effect? - "nobody and nothing can change Allah's Plan".

    162 52/49a: "- - - parts of the night - - - at the retreat of the stars - - -". This refers to 2 of the 5 fixed prayers a day which the Quran demands. These fixed prayers are so essential to Allah, that he made them one of the 5 pillars of Islam. Yahweh on the other hand did not mind such formalism at all - pray when there was a reason or a need or a wish. This fundamental difference is one of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god.

    ##163 57/22c: “No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls (minds*) but is recorded in a decree before We (Allah*) brings it into existence - - -.” In more plain words: Nothing can happen unless in accordance with predestination according to Islam - with what Allah has decided and written down on beforehand. But this contradicts each and every verse saying man has free will, and also that man is to blame when he does something wrong. And what about accidents and natural catastrophes – are they planned and executed – like Calvin by the drawer/artist in Calvin and Hobbs – by a benevolent, good god? Not to mention: What about prayers? - if everything is predestined long before and in accordance with a Plan nobody and nothing can change, also prayers can change nothing and are in case meaningless in Islam.

    (At least 10 contradictions).

    164 58/1e: "- - - (prayer) - - -". What is the idea with prayer in Islam? If Allah has predestined everything long time ago, and according to his Plan which nobody and nothing can change, like the Quran states many places, also prayers can change not a thing.

    165 58/13b: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    166 60/4i: "I (Abraham*) will pray for thee (his father*) - - -". If Abram/Abraham had been a Muslim, what had been the idea of praying? - everything is totally predestined by Allah in his unchangeable Plan, according to the Quran - a plan nobody and nothing can change. Why then prayers, when they can change nothing anyhow?

    167 62/9b: "When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday - - - hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) - - -". The Friday afternoon prayer is the most significant prayer in Islam. But note that unlike many religions, Islam does not have a day of rest during the week. Every day of the week is a workday, except during the prayer. You may work till the prayer starts, and start working again when the prayer is finished. (Seemingly this gives Muslims an edge in production. On the other hand science has found that a day of rest now and then benefits both body and soul, and makes one able to work more efficient and steady in between. We have never seen any study studying the plusses and minuses of these two systems, and which one comes out ahead in overall efficiency and production. Also see 62/10 below.

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    ###168 62/9c: "- - - prayer - - -". What are the idea with and the effect of prayers in Islam? The Quran MANY places states that Allah predestines absolutely everything, and he predestines it according to his Plan, which nobody and nothing can change. And he predestines it long time before it is going to happen - he f.x. according to Hadiths predestines whether you are going to end in Hell or Heaven already when you are a 4 months old fetus = 5 months before you are born. Now the Quran tells that man also has free will - a necessary claim not to make Allah very unjust when he sends a person to Hell for sins (or for that case rewards him for good deeds) - but full predestination and even a little free will for man are two claims which are impossible even for an omniscient and omnipotent god to combine. Give man even the slightest degree of free will, and the laws of chaos inexorably finish off predestination - the god can make things happen by adjusting this and that, but the moment man gets the possibility to change his mind once more about something, full predestination is gone - and the same is full precognition. Even Islam admits that full predestination is impossible to combine with free will of man (some claim that partly free will is possible, but that is wrong - the laws of chaos is very clear on that point; the so-called "butterfly effect" kicks in): We quote ###(A6/141 - comment to verse 6/149): “In other words, the real relationship between Allah’s knowledge of the future (and, therefore, the ineluctably of what is to happen in the future) on one side, and man’s free will, on the other – two propositions which, on the face of it, seem to contradict one another – is beyond man’s comprehension; but since both are postulated by Allah, both must be true". But here Islam is leaving religion, and entering pure mysticism. In the non-material realms of life there are things impossible even for an omniscient and omnipotent god. Proofs for this in 6/149a above.

    If there is complete predestination in Islam like the Quran states as absolute many places in the book, prayers can have no effect in this religion - everything is already decided and nothing can be changed in Allah’s long since predestined Plan. To claim the opposite just is mysticism, not religion.

    Combine this with 67/9c and you get a dark picture.

    Also forgiving is impossible in Islam if nothing can change Allah's predestined Plan.

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    169 62/10a: "And when the Prayer is finished, then may ye disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of Allah (= try to make money*) - - -". See 62/9b above.

    170 62/10b: "- - - prayer - - -". See 62/9c above.

    171 "- - - celebrate the Praises of Allah - - -". This will be in vain if he does not exist and in addition is a god (not to mention the effect if he exists, but belongs to the dark forces, which a number of his(?) rules may indicate).

    172 62/10d: "- - - celebrate the Praises of Allah - - - that ye (Muslims*) may prosper". There will be no such effect unless he exists and is something supernatural (not necessarily a god).

    173 63/5d: "- - - pray - - -". If Allah predestines everything and according to a plan nobody and nothing can change, what then is the effect of prayers in Islam? - it can change nothing anyhow.

    174 63/6b: "Allah will not forgive them (big sinners*)". See "the 11. hour" in NT (f.x. Matt. 20/8-13). Yahweh and Allah the same god? If you are able to believe it, then you deserve to believe it.

    Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, something which according to the Quran is something nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

    ##175 70/22b: "- - - prayer - - -". What are the idea with and the effect of prayers in Islam. The Quran MANY places states that Allah predestines absolutely everything, and he predestines it according to his Plan, which nobody and nothing can change. And he predestines it long time before it is going to happen - he f.x. according to Hadiths predestines whether you are going to end in Hell or Heaven already when you are a 4 months old fetus = 5 months before you are born. Now the Quran tells that man also has free will - a necessary claim not to make Allah very unjust when he sends a person to Hell for sins (or for that case rewards him for good deeds) - but full predestination and even a little free will for man, are two things which are impossible even for an omniscient and omnipotent god to combine. Give man even the slightest degree of free will, and the laws of chaos inexorably finish off predestination - the god can make things happen by adjusting this and that, but the moment man gets the possibility to change his mind once more about something, full predestination is gone - and the same is full precognition. Even Islam admits that full predestination is impossible to combine with free will of man (some claim that partly free will is possible, but that is wrong - the laws of chaos is very clear on that point; the so-called "butterfly effect" kicks in): We quote (A6/141 - comment to verse 6/149): “In other words, the real relationship between Allah’s knowledge of the future (and, therefore, the ineluctably of what is to happen in the future) on one side, and man’s free will, on the other – two propositions which, on the face of it, seem to contradict one another – is beyond man’s comprehension; but since both are postulated by Allah, both must be true". But here Islam is leaving religion, and entering pure mysticism. In the non-material realms of life there are things impossible even for an omniscient and omnipotent god. Proofs for this in 6/149a above.

    If there is complete predestination in Islam like the Quran states as absolute several places in the Quran, prayers can have no effect in this religion - everything is already decided and nothing can be changed in Allah’s long since predestined Plan. To claim the opposite just is mysticism, not religion, not to mention no reality or truth.

    176 70/23b: "- - - prayer - - -". See 70/22b above.

    177 71/4d: "- - - when the Term given by God (here Allah*) is accomplished, it cannot be put forward" When Allah has predestined something and made it part of his Plan, nothing and nobody can change it - what Allah has predestined, cannot be changed. (Then why f.x. prayers, as nothing can change his predestinations according to the Quran?)

    178 73/2-4: “Stand to (prayer) in the night, but not all the night - or a little less, Or a little more - - -”. Abrogated already by 73/20 reducing it to minimum 1/3 or reading the Quran “as much as may be easy (for you)”.

    179 73/6b: "- - - the rising by night - - -". = The prayers prayed during the night.

    180 73/6c: "- - - Prayer - - -". What is the idea and effect of prayers in Islam, if Allah already has predestined everything?

    181 73/20a: "- - - (to prayer) - - -". But what mission can prayers have if the god has predestined everything long time before?

    182 73/20g: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often - 50 times a day - according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    183 74/43: "We (non-Muslims*) were not of those who prayed". But what is the idea with and effect of prayer in the Quran and in Islam, if Allah has predestined everything long before, and according to his Plan which nobody and nothing can change? - the two claims are mutually excluding each other.

    184 75/31b: "- - - nor did he (non-Muslim*) pray". Beware that when the Quran uses expressions like this, it only means praying to Allah. Prayers to other gods - f.x. Yahweh - do not count.

    185 75//31c: "- - - pray". But to what avail are prayers in Islam? If it is true like the Quran states many times, that Allah predestines everything long before and according to a Plan nobody and nothing can change, also prayers can change nothing - the two claims (predestination contra any value of prayers) are mutually excluding each other, and maximum one of them can even theoretically be true - there are things impossible even for an omniscient and omnipotent god, too.

    186 76/25: "And celebrate the name of your (Muslims'*) Lord (Allah*) - - -". = Pray to or glorify. But what is the value and effect of prayers if Allah long since has predestined everything and is unchangeable? And as for glorifying: See 1/1a above and see if you think he deserves it - - - if he exists.

    ###187 98/5a: "And they (the people of the Bible - Jews, Christians, Sabeans*) have been commanded (by Muhammad*) no more than this: to worship Allah, offering Him (Allah*) sincere devotion, being true (in faith (Islam*)), to establish regular Prayer (to Allah*) - - -". We do not think these demands on believing (in Yahweh) people knowing how much was wrong in the Quran - or at least some of it - and thus knowing that this was a made up, new religion, based on a well known, but dressed up pagan god (al-Lah), need any comments.

    188 98/5b: "- - - regular prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    189 107/5: "- - - their (regular*) Prayers - - -". This demand for regular prayers - 5 times a day - was so essential for Allah (he even wanted more often according to Hadiths) that it became one of the 5 "pillars" of Islam. For Yahweh such formalism was so totally without any interest, that no similar rule - not even the idea - at all is mentioned in the entire Bible: Pray when there is a reason or a need or a wish. One of the 100% proofs for that Yahweh and Allah are not the same god. Also see 23/9b above.

    190 110/3c: "- - - His (Allah's*) Forgiveness - - -". Allah can forgive nobody unless he exists and is a god.

    Another point is that to forgive - or for that case to punish or reward or fulfill prayers - means for Allah to change his Plan considering the sinner/person, something which according to the Quran is something nobody and nothing can make him do. See 2/187d above.

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    It also is pretty thought provoking that f.x. all the errors, contradictions, wrong facts, etc., only and alone, in the Quran, prove 100% that there is no god behind that book. And that f.x. the fact that Jesus accepted OT as correct, proves to both Christians, Jews, and Muslims that the OT was not falsified at that time (33 AD - and that the Qumran scrolls (the scrolls with biblical stuff there, are from 150 - 50 BC) prove that even OT was not falsified any time later, too. (Those were the texts also at the time of Jesus - a person like Jesus had not accepted falsified books, neither according to Islam nor according to Christianism - and they are the same texts and have the same contents as what you find in the Bible of today (and with one exception you find parts of or complete all books in OT there).

    .

    It further is an insult to that possible god to "explain" that his texts means something different from what they really says = you are more clever than him at explaining what the god "really" meant, than the god is himself, even when he tries to explain things "clearly and easy to understand", and says his words are to be understood literally and without hidden meanings. Also only "the sick of heart" look for hidden meanings behind his words, according to the Quran - the very claimed hidden meanings the wise Muslims claim are what Allah really meant, but was unable to express clearly himself, so that they have to help the bumbling god and tell what he "really" tried to say. This in spite of that the Quran clearly states that meanings hidden behind Allah's clear and easy to understand words, only are possible for Allah to understand, and like said above are "only for the sick of heart" to look for.

    May be as bad: To claim that the Quran means something different from what the texts clearly say, is to falsify or corrupt the quranic texts.

    190 comments. Sub-total = 2613 + 190 = 2803.


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This work was upload with assistance of M. A. Khan, editor of islam-watch.org and the author of "Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism, and Slavery".